Something about the new Ascian lore

[Seraphor]

It's interesting you put it like this because I interpreted the MSQ differently.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point. ... [snip]

You might be trying to fit things into a hole you've already made, wanting Hydaelyn to be the villain and Zodiark the antihero.

Nothing we've seen suggest Hydaelyn requires or consumes aether, although that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it seems likely that Hydaelyn isn't as consuming as Zodiark whatever the details are.

At the end of the day, Zodiark is a death cult god, requiring living sacrifice to fulfill it's goals, and demanding servitude.
He tempers his subjects, who are compelled to carry out his will.
I'm pretty sure we do learn that Zodiark required more and more sacrifice, that people were not happy with, as this is the reason Hydaelyn was summoned in the first place.

Hydaelyn does not do this. Everything we know about those who summoned her, and her own words to us, are explicitly about free will. Her blessing does not come with conditions, and there's nothing stopping us from opposing her.
Hydaelyn was summoned on the basis of freedom against the tyranny (direct or indirect) of Zodiark, and there's no indication that's a false narrative.

Seems to me that the sundering into 14 shards, and possibly the creation of the lifestream, was not only to effectively neutralise Zodiark, but also to allow Hydaelyn to exist without drawing upon living aether. As self-sufficient, or 'renewable' source of aether perhaps.
Not sure where this 'Zodiark created the lifestream' idea came from.

Remember, primals embody the characteristics of their summoning.
Zodiark was summoned by a group of dictatorial rulers, as a tyrant, imposing his will upon others via tempering, and requires sacrifice for power.
Hydaelyn was summoned by dissidents, as a paragon of free will, and requires nothing from her wards but the will to uphold her ideals.
That's pretty much all you need to know, everything else is just flavour.

[LineageRazor]

Nothing we've seen suggest Hydaelyn requires or consumes aether, although that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it seems likely that Hydaelyn isn't as consuming as Zodiark whatever the details are.

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggests it.

Not sure where this 'Zodiark created the lifestream' idea came from.

From me, for one, though others may have considered the idea independently. It's my theory that the Lifestream is the "new life" Zodiark created in order to heal the world (the command he needed the second sacrifice to fulfill). Life that existed prior to the creation of the Lifestream (such as the Ancients) are incompatible with the Lifestream. Their souls don't dissolve into it properly, and they remain whole (if Sundered), occasionally being reborn into mortal bodies while other mortals get newly constructed souls fashioned from Lifestream Aether. This incompatibility is a big part of the reason why I think the Lifestream didn't exist before Zodiark.

The Lifestream healed the planet, rendered it fertile again, and the Council decided when its work was done to sacrifice it (and all the life forms born from it) back into Zodiark to bring back their fallen comrades.

The Dissenters weren't keen on this plan, both because they didn't want everyone to be slaves to Zodiark, and also because the Lifestream had produced INTELLIGENT life forms. Slaughtering them all would be a heinous moral breech. Hence, Hydaelyn, to stop Zodiark, and protect the new life.

Whether or not they knew that Hydaelyn's actions (the Sundering) would have the effects that it did are unclear. It's not even clear whether the effects were known in advance to Hydaelyn herself.

[TankHunter678]

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggest.

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

[Absimiliard]

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

Hydaelyn is most likely limited to acting in the Source. While she did manage to send Minfilia to the First - and with a significant amount of power, no less - she probably could not have taken anything back from that. Reaching across worlds is something that requires a truly immense amount of power to begin with. A specific set of circumstances exist which make G'raha Tia uniquely suited to perform this feat, and even he has a significant number of limitations that prevent him from performing certain actions with it.

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe. What's to say she hasn't been tempering people? Everyone shown with the Echo thus far has displayed an abnormal need to perform selfless acts seemingly without consideration for the consequences they could face. If indeed the Echo is something she confers, which (barring retcon) is currently known to be the case, then it seems likely she might be influencing these people on some level. Even if not, the reality is that she is still a primal. If she does not feed then she will die.

[Theodric]

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe.

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

[Seraphor]

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

Light=evil and Darkness=good is just as derivative these days. I'd find it just as disappointing.
The story can be nuanced without being a cliche.

So far, the vast majority of primals have been summoned due to Ascian teachings, meaning that most primals we've faced are at least somewhat related to Zodiark's summoning, sharing the tempering effects and high aether costs.

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

[QT_Melon]

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

..Louisoix...have you actually done the coil storyline?

I don't think the person you quoted was also arguing over a reverse of roles, rather that the story may be saying that ALL primals may have their faults including the eldest of the two. This whole story is about how light and dark is about aspects necessary to sustain life.

(But besides that it's funny that you find light(white) being "bad" when culturally White is considered death in some cultures anyways)

As far as summoning, where did you get that none of the council sacrificed? The population that sacrificed were voluntary but we still don't know the story if the council demanded others for the first attempt - other than they were overseeing the summoning.

That said it's hard to call something a DEATH God when the very reason to summon it was to keep from total annihilation/extinction, I mean otherwise we wouldn't have a story period. Final Days happens, planet is done, no Ancients, no Zodiark, no Hydaelyn.

We don't know if they KNEW tempering was the side effect, there's evidence that it's possible depending on when the 14th (strongly hinted WoL) member left. We don't know who was tempered to date for sure. I mean we have clues it may have been those involved in the summoning, and or others around.

If anything seems that they were content at the very least to do the first 2 sets of sacrifice because 1. No Planet, no game. 2. No life (:P)

It was the third where we got the counterbalance because it was going too far at that point. I mean why was Hyydaelyn made not immediately after if the first set of sacrifices was a real problem?

[Zohar_Lahar]

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

In Akademia Anyder, we see a similar small-scale summoning of "Guardian Force" Quetzacoatl, which may have been a prototype of how Hydaelyn might have been summoned much later. And we also saw one other primal summoned through summoner sacrifice: Shinryu (though others were also sacrificed in the process).

[Absimiliard]

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

We know nothing of Zodiark's own personality. What we do know is that the Ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to summon it twice; once to stop the apocalypse, once to make the planet habitable again. The intended third summoning was, as far as we know, supposed to bring back those that willingly gave their lives for a cause they believed in - to give back to the heroes that had so selflessly given themselves for the greater cause. The Convocation likely could not sacrifice themselves due to the risk it would pose to their race in such dire times. After all, who is to say how long those particular Ancients had been running the show? Suddenly passing the reins in the middle of an extinction level event is a good way to expedite the downfall instead of halting it.

All we know of Hydaelyn's summoning is that it was carried out by a group of dissenters that did not like the idea of sacrificing the very life Zodiark bore to bring back those whose lives were freely given. We do not know the exact number of lives given to create Hydaelyn, but we do know it was more than twelve Ancients.

None of this reads to me like the primals would be the embodiment of selfishness. I am, however, curious as to where you found these things that the Twelve were somehow involved with Hydaelyn's summoning. The only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far are related to the Navigator, I believe. What's more, it could just as easily be that post-sundering primitives saw these symbols and concocted the Twelve on their own. We've no way to know one way or the other.

Banri Oda (MSQ writer) has said that he doesn't think players will like stories that are too dark or complex, and I think this is true in general.

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

[QT_Melon]

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Gonna take issue with this statement.

We don't exactly have evidence that either summoning is exactly the case you mentioned. We have guesses, but nothing concrete because it wouldn't explain sundered souls for both followers/summoning groups.

The reason is it doesn't explain the sundered souls. How is Hydaelyn able to have souls sundered supposedly from the groups that self sacrificed yet assume the same was not done for Zodiark.

We do know that there was the Convocation of the 13th, first sacrifice took half the population, that may have included members of their own group. That would leave about 6-7 members. Then another half of that population again to house life - which would leave around 3 members. Now since the last 3 didn't want to sacrifice themselves yes, their's a slight point...but that didn't mean NONE of the members sacrificed themselves.

But then we have the ones who summoned Hydaelyn. How is it that their souls were still around after the sacrifice if they sacrificed themselves?

So either both primals house those sacrificed souls which is why they may be more attuned to those specific ones even after the sundering.

Which would still ask the question were they sundered from Zodiark being split? What about those with Hydaelyn how did they get split if they already sacrificed themselves?

The only guess to that to the above theory, is that said souls became part of the lifestream waiting for reincarnation. Then once the sundering happened if souls were housed in Zodiark they got split, if they were in the lifestream they were split. Everyone one else left either were gone or escaped the sundering? But if they were alive then...what happened?

Or... Both parties were still alive until the sundering happened?