Something about the new Ascian lore

[WanderingStar]

The core question remains: Can we?

If the coup de grace to the Will of the Star sundered not only Him, but the world itself, into fourteen pieces, can we kill the current Will of the Star and keep the Lifestream as we know it? Would you seal the death warrant of mortal life in the terms we've fought for it all along just to spite Hydaelyn's history?

Perhaps this is a result of my bias - while I've remained open to the "kill all the gods with the power of friendship" route, declaring for #TeamHydaelyn as a player going through the story has been simply more fun, the same way it's been more fun to doubt Gaius's death or accept the Twelve are probably imaginary or poorly remembered Warriors of Light (Perhaps they were Hydaelyn's summoners!). As a result, "Kill Crystal Mom" is often my last resort while She continues to profess that She has our backs, loves Her children, and - above all - has proven time and time again for 12,000 years that if no one is rocking the boat, She goes to sleep and history belongs to man.

First things first, I want to see that She can be excised from the Lifestream and nothing meaningful will change for the inheritors of the planet.

If we can't guarantee that, it's not even on my table.

It's interesting you put it like this because I interpreted the MSQ differently.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point. As it stands, we have no confirmation (also correct me if wrong) that the lifestream as we know it existed before Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark and the Source. Upon doing so, the lifestream was created and all aether was separated between the 14 worlds. Hydaelyn seems to reside in the aetheral sea or "lifestream" as we know it. At this point, I am highly speculating that in liu of a lifestream a lot of the aether in the Amurotine's world was kept within it's people. It's huge 30ft people that can generate beings with their minds. That would take enormous amounts of aether/energy and they had it within themselves.

Getting back to the point and to put it bluntly, when you die, your aether goes to the lifestream where Hydaelyn sups on you for sustenance. Something has to sustain her or she'd cease to exist, no? Sure, you're inevitably reformed or reincarnated, perhaps even on the same shard as Emet-Selch points out being from the Source is very special and particular, but as it stands I don't really see a difference between mortals dying and going to aetherial sea and sacrifices to a primal. Either way, they are sustained off the aether of other beings.

Zodiark, at least from what has been revealed so far, appeared to require the sacrifices in order to fulfill the Amurotines wish to save their dying star. That makes sense to me as such a monumental task would require an insane amount of aether or energy and when the sacrifices were made he fulfilled his end. It was the Amurotines that chose to keep sacirificing to this primal, not the primal demanding it. They asked for things and Zodiark went "Well, give me the raw materials and I'll do it."

Because of this, I didn't see Zodiark as evil. He's...more like a computer program following tasks given. Hydaelyn could be the same perhaps. Her one rule being "Stop Zodiark from being used." Though she seems much more manupliative and and cunning in my opinion. It also concerns me greatly that she seemed to not care for the fate of the First until Minfilia was reabsorbed into the Lifestream. Hydaelyn either lacked the awareness or the capacity to care and this boggles me.

Either way, I will require a very compelling explaination from the MSQ to justify why Hydaelyn is a "good" being. At best I view her and Zodiark as tools that were misused, attempting to follow their individual protocol rules:

Zodiark: Ensure survival of star, Fulfill wishes of my summoners.
Hydaelyn: Stop Zodiark.

Anyway, if there are holes in my understanding please set them straight. I feel like I have a decent, if somewhat strangely interpreted handle on stuff.

[Erendis]

Getting back to the point and to put it bluntly, when you die, your aether goes to the lifestream where Hydaelyn sups on you for sustenance. Something has to sustain her or she'd cease to exist, no?

If she ate everyone/everything that died, life would diminish to nothing eventually. Afaik aether from primals is not released until they are killed.

[Seraphor]

It's interesting you put it like this because I interpreted the MSQ differently.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point. ... [snip]

You might be trying to fit things into a hole you've already made, wanting Hydaelyn to be the villain and Zodiark the antihero.

Nothing we've seen suggest Hydaelyn requires or consumes aether, although that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it seems likely that Hydaelyn isn't as consuming as Zodiark whatever the details are.

At the end of the day, Zodiark is a death cult god, requiring living sacrifice to fulfill it's goals, and demanding servitude.
He tempers his subjects, who are compelled to carry out his will.
I'm pretty sure we do learn that Zodiark required more and more sacrifice, that people were not happy with, as this is the reason Hydaelyn was summoned in the first place.

Hydaelyn does not do this. Everything we know about those who summoned her, and her own words to us, are explicitly about free will. Her blessing does not come with conditions, and there's nothing stopping us from opposing her.
Hydaelyn was summoned on the basis of freedom against the tyranny (direct or indirect) of Zodiark, and there's no indication that's a false narrative.

Seems to me that the sundering into 14 shards, and possibly the creation of the lifestream, was not only to effectively neutralise Zodiark, but also to allow Hydaelyn to exist without drawing upon living aether. As self-sufficient, or 'renewable' source of aether perhaps.
Not sure where this 'Zodiark created the lifestream' idea came from.

Remember, primals embody the characteristics of their summoning.
Zodiark was summoned by a group of dictatorial rulers, as a tyrant, imposing his will upon others via tempering, and requires sacrifice for power.
Hydaelyn was summoned by dissidents, as a paragon of free will, and requires nothing from her wards but the will to uphold her ideals.
That's pretty much all you need to know, everything else is just flavour.

[LineageRazor]

Nothing we've seen suggest Hydaelyn requires or consumes aether, although that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it seems likely that Hydaelyn isn't as consuming as Zodiark whatever the details are.

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggests it.

Not sure where this 'Zodiark created the lifestream' idea came from.

From me, for one, though others may have considered the idea independently. It's my theory that the Lifestream is the "new life" Zodiark created in order to heal the world (the command he needed the second sacrifice to fulfill). Life that existed prior to the creation of the Lifestream (such as the Ancients) are incompatible with the Lifestream. Their souls don't dissolve into it properly, and they remain whole (if Sundered), occasionally being reborn into mortal bodies while other mortals get newly constructed souls fashioned from Lifestream Aether. This incompatibility is a big part of the reason why I think the Lifestream didn't exist before Zodiark.

The Lifestream healed the planet, rendered it fertile again, and the Council decided when its work was done to sacrifice it (and all the life forms born from it) back into Zodiark to bring back their fallen comrades.

The Dissenters weren't keen on this plan, both because they didn't want everyone to be slaves to Zodiark, and also because the Lifestream had produced INTELLIGENT life forms. Slaughtering them all would be a heinous moral breech. Hence, Hydaelyn, to stop Zodiark, and protect the new life.

Whether or not they knew that Hydaelyn's actions (the Sundering) would have the effects that it did are unclear. It's not even clear whether the effects were known in advance to Hydaelyn herself.

[TankHunter678]

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggest.

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

[Absimiliard]

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

Hydaelyn is most likely limited to acting in the Source. While she did manage to send Minfilia to the First - and with a significant amount of power, no less - she probably could not have taken anything back from that. Reaching across worlds is something that requires a truly immense amount of power to begin with. A specific set of circumstances exist which make G'raha Tia uniquely suited to perform this feat, and even he has a significant number of limitations that prevent him from performing certain actions with it.

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe. What's to say she hasn't been tempering people? Everyone shown with the Echo thus far has displayed an abnormal need to perform selfless acts seemingly without consideration for the consequences they could face. If indeed the Echo is something she confers, which (barring retcon) is currently known to be the case, then it seems likely she might be influencing these people on some level. Even if not, the reality is that she is still a primal. If she does not feed then she will die.

[Theodric]

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe.

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

[Seraphor]

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

Light=evil and Darkness=good is just as derivative these days. I'd find it just as disappointing.
The story can be nuanced without being a cliche.

So far, the vast majority of primals have been summoned due to Ascian teachings, meaning that most primals we've faced are at least somewhat related to Zodiark's summoning, sharing the tempering effects and high aether costs.

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

[WanderingStar]

You might be trying to fit things into a hole you've already made, wanting Hydaelyn to be the villain and Zodiark the antihero.

snip

I think what I wrote was misinterpreted. I equated them to computer programs, not hero/antihero.

Regardless, if tempering is to be used as evidence a primal is evil then...consider Hydaelyn. We have still never seen anyone disobey Hydaelyn which calls into question whether they are tempered by her. This is already a strong theory in my opinion because those with the Blessing of Light cannot be tempered by other Primals. Additionally, anytime Hydaelyn has spoken to anyone with her "blessing" they obey without question - even when it means their death. Her blessing does indeed appear to come with conditions. Again, I'm not saying Hydaelyn is "the big bad" but I am saying that I don't think the fact that Zodiark tempered his followers is evidence that he, as a primal, is evil. I think it's just a function of what they are.

I think making conclusions like the Amourtines And Zodiark being...tyrants and "death cult god" and such is premature at this time. Perhaps that will be the case, perhaps not. But it's not been depicted as of yet. If Hydaelyn does not require aether for sustenance then this sets her apart from every other creature in the setting. It's possible, but I'll assume it's unlikely for now.

[TankHunter678]

I think what I wrote was misinterpreted. I equated them to computer programs, not hero/antihero.

Regardless, if tempering is to be used as evidence a primal is evil then...consider Hydaelyn. We have still never seen anyone disobey Hydaelyn which calls into question whether they are tempered by her. This is already a strong theory in my opinion because those with the Blessing of Light cannot be tempered by other Primals. Additionally, anytime Hydaelyn has spoken to anyone with her "blessing" they obey without question - even when it means their death. Her blessing does indeed appear to come with conditions. Again, I'm not saying Hydaelyn is "the big bad" but I am saying that I don't think the fact that Zodiark tempered his followers is evidence that he, as a primal, is evil. I think it's just a function of what they are.

I think making conclusions like the Amourtines And Zodiark being...tyrants and "death cult god" and such is premature at this time. Perhaps that will be the case, perhaps not. But it's not been depicted as of yet. If Hydaelyn does not require aether for sustenance then this sets her apart from every other creature in the setting. It's possible, but I'll assume it's unlikely for now.

We had Ardbert who is a WoL fragment with the blessing of light disobey, change sides, and tried to cleave Minfilia the Word of the Mother, who was merged with Hydaelyn beyond a simple agent, in two where she had to put up a barrier of light to halt the axe to survive. All because Hydaelyn was not there for them when they needed her. There was also Cyela who was a WoL who turned against Hydaelyn to assist in the rejoinings because she failed her world and saw the ascian's plan as the only way to save a world she perceived she doomed from her actions.

Tempered would never try to directly attack or even contemplate changing sides against their god. The closest we got to a Hydaelyn tempered was Minfilia when she said she was like the Ascians, and she died to give strength and freedom to Ryne to choose her own life.