Something about the new Ascian lore

[kidalutz]

Is it clouded, though? This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin. We are to Ascians as ants are to us so it's really not hard to understand why they would have such a low opinion of humanity. After all, we don't bat an eyelash when we get rid of an ant colony that's been impeding us in some way.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world. It could potentially be much a much worse act than it currently appears if it turns out that evidence indicating Zodiark's creations to have never been sapient in the first place turns out to be completely accurate.

again dont have the whole story we just have half the story.

[Absimiliard]

Moral relativism = there is no universal moral truth, whether something is right or wrong depends only on your culture or time period. I personally think that's a ridiculous stance to take, as some things are clearly, unequivocally wrong.

If only one side can win while the other gets destroyed, no, I don't want both sides to have equally compelling reasons for what they're doing. That's tragedy. I'd prefer it if the heroes were doing the right thing after all. But also that the Ascians and Emet get proper closure.

Therein lies the conundrum. It's becoming increasingly apparent that this is may no longer be the matter of good vs. evil that some people would like for it to be, and I personally hope SE continues the course on this. I find the story much more compelling now that I know the Ascians may have had a good reason for what they were trying to do. There are times when tragedy is preferable to a very cut and dry "you're wrong, we're right" kind of story. I will find the end of ShB much more interesting if we do indeed find that Hydaelyn and her summoners are just as guilty as Emet-Selch and his ilk.

All that said, I do agree that certain things are unequivocally wrong - from our perspective. I know it's a common trope for alien races to inexplicably adhere (sometimes loosely) to human standards, but we've little reason to believe this would actually be the case. Our morals are shaped by our environment. The Ascians are definitely alien in mindset, physiology, and sheer power, so it's pretty easy for me to imagine their moral standards are not the same as ours. That's not to say they haven't been warped by their ages of sorrow - Emet-Selch himself makes it readily apparent that they have.

[Kokomi]

There are times when tragedy is preferable to a very cut and dry "you're wrong, we're right" kind of story. I will find the end of ShB much more interesting if we do indeed find that Hydaelyn and her summoners are just as guilty as Emet-Selk and his ilk.

I feel bad enough that we had to kill Emet-Selch. No more please.

The Ascians are definitely alien in mindset, physiology, and sheer power, so it's pretty easy for me to imagine their moral standards are not the same as ours.

Sure, but that doesn't mean both moral standards are equally acceptable. Or if you're going the route of "they are just so different from us we can never understand them", then that's the end of the discussion.

[Absimiliard]

Sure, but that doesn't mean both moral standards are equally acceptable. Or if you're going the route of "they are just so different from us we can never understand them", then that's the end of the discussion.

Then what does decide which moral standard is more acceptable? That in and of itself would be making a judgment call based on morals. It's super easy to get drawn into circular thing with this sort of thing because of how fascinating it is, I find. In any case, I would say we can understand them to a point. It's obvious they're driven by the same range of emotions we are, though they do appear to have significantly more self-control most of the time. The disconnect comes into play once you introduce their sheer power, vast knowledge, and unlimited lifespans into the equation. There is no telling how those factors would alter perceptions. There's also no telling what kind of psychological damage watching the downfall of your entire civilization would cause.

[Kokomi]

Then what does decide which moral standard is more acceptable?

Each individual person does. That's why ethics exists. I said it earlier, but I honestly don't know if Emet-Selch was right from a moral standpoint (part of it due to being a thorny moral dilemma, other part being we just don't have enough information, like how many Ascians are being brought back?). That makes me uncomfortable, so I'm hoping Square gives us an easy out where we find out that resurrecting the dead Ascians was impossible after all, or something like that.

[ObsidianFire]

What is relevant is that Emet-Selch's own people (and the same race as him) thought that whatever the Ascians were doing with Zoidark was wrong enough that they made an entirely different concept/primal/goddess to take Zoidark's place. Honestly, the conflict Emet-Selch is having isn't even with us or the current races. It's with the people who summoned Hydaelyn before the Star was ever Sundered. Only they are conveniently dead and reincarnated as a completely different race/kind of being by now.

If Emet-Selch and the Ascians' reasoning is "alien" to us and can't be understood by use because they are so different, then that same logic would go for the people who summoned Hydaelyn. But even then their reasoning for summoning Hydaelyn is explained to us. They thought the new life on the Planet that was born after Zoidark rejuvenated the Planet was worth not sacrificing to Zoidark to get the members of their own race back from Zoidark. Why they decided not to get those souls back at a cost and weather or not the Sundering was all part of of their plan for Hydaelyn is still up in the air. But that doesn't change that someone other then us with a much better understanding of the Ascians' position also decided that what they were doing wasn't right and took steps to change that. Which resulted in the world as it is now.

[WanderingStar]

The core question remains: Can we?

If the coup de grace to the Will of the Star sundered not only Him, but the world itself, into fourteen pieces, can we kill the current Will of the Star and keep the Lifestream as we know it? Would you seal the death warrant of mortal life in the terms we've fought for it all along just to spite Hydaelyn's history?

Perhaps this is a result of my bias - while I've remained open to the "kill all the gods with the power of friendship" route, declaring for #TeamHydaelyn as a player going through the story has been simply more fun, the same way it's been more fun to doubt Gaius's death or accept the Twelve are probably imaginary or poorly remembered Warriors of Light (Perhaps they were Hydaelyn's summoners!). As a result, "Kill Crystal Mom" is often my last resort while She continues to profess that She has our backs, loves Her children, and - above all - has proven time and time again for 12,000 years that if no one is rocking the boat, She goes to sleep and history belongs to man.

First things first, I want to see that She can be excised from the Lifestream and nothing meaningful will change for the inheritors of the planet.

If we can't guarantee that, it's not even on my table.

It's interesting you put it like this because I interpreted the MSQ differently.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point. As it stands, we have no confirmation (also correct me if wrong) that the lifestream as we know it existed before Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark and the Source. Upon doing so, the lifestream was created and all aether was separated between the 14 worlds. Hydaelyn seems to reside in the aetheral sea or "lifestream" as we know it. At this point, I am highly speculating that in liu of a lifestream a lot of the aether in the Amurotine's world was kept within it's people. It's huge 30ft people that can generate beings with their minds. That would take enormous amounts of aether/energy and they had it within themselves.

Getting back to the point and to put it bluntly, when you die, your aether goes to the lifestream where Hydaelyn sups on you for sustenance. Something has to sustain her or she'd cease to exist, no? Sure, you're inevitably reformed or reincarnated, perhaps even on the same shard as Emet-Selch points out being from the Source is very special and particular, but as it stands I don't really see a difference between mortals dying and going to aetherial sea and sacrifices to a primal. Either way, they are sustained off the aether of other beings.

Zodiark, at least from what has been revealed so far, appeared to require the sacrifices in order to fulfill the Amurotines wish to save their dying star. That makes sense to me as such a monumental task would require an insane amount of aether or energy and when the sacrifices were made he fulfilled his end. It was the Amurotines that chose to keep sacirificing to this primal, not the primal demanding it. They asked for things and Zodiark went "Well, give me the raw materials and I'll do it."

Because of this, I didn't see Zodiark as evil. He's...more like a computer program following tasks given. Hydaelyn could be the same perhaps. Her one rule being "Stop Zodiark from being used." Though she seems much more manupliative and and cunning in my opinion. It also concerns me greatly that she seemed to not care for the fate of the First until Minfilia was reabsorbed into the Lifestream. Hydaelyn either lacked the awareness or the capacity to care and this boggles me.

Either way, I will require a very compelling explaination from the MSQ to justify why Hydaelyn is a "good" being. At best I view her and Zodiark as tools that were misused, attempting to follow their individual protocol rules:

Zodiark: Ensure survival of star, Fulfill wishes of my summoners.
Hydaelyn: Stop Zodiark.

Anyway, if there are holes in my understanding please set them straight. I feel like I have a decent, if somewhat strangely interpreted handle on stuff.

[WanderingStar]

This would only work if Zodiark (As the will of the star) existed before Emet-Selch claimed they created him. What you are doing in the dungeon were steps leading up to Zodiark's creation, so they couldn't have been started by him because he didn't exist yet. From my understanding, Zodiark did exactly what they hoped. He was created, and stopped the Calamity. Now it's possible that there was a true will of the star before Zodiark (Terminus, maybe?) that was causing the Calamity, but there's nothing showing that is the case.

I actually think you're on to something and I thought it myself.

The NPCs in Amaurot discuss a "Cacophony" that is being heard across the world and suddenly causing the immortal beings to lose control of their creation magicks and manifest terrible monsters. The true villain, the thing we REALLY should wonder about is not the Ascians or Zodiark. It's whoever or whatever started this chain of events.

On a side note, I don't think it's a coincidence that this event was called a "Cacophony" and the Echo is named the Echo. I don't know what the correlation is exactly yet but...yeah. That's not an accident in my opinion.

[Erendis]

Getting back to the point and to put it bluntly, when you die, your aether goes to the lifestream where Hydaelyn sups on you for sustenance. Something has to sustain her or she'd cease to exist, no?

If she ate everyone/everything that died, life would diminish to nothing eventually. Afaik aether from primals is not released until they are killed.

[Ilenya]

I actually think you're on to something and I thought it myself.

The NPCs in Amaurot discuss a "Cacophony" that is being heard across the world and suddenly causing the immortal beings to lose control of their creation magicks and manifest terrible monsters. The true villain, the thing we REALLY should wonder about is not the Ascians or Zodiark. It's whoever or whatever started this chain of events.

On a side note, I don't think it's a coincidence that this event was called a "Cacophony" and the Echo is named the Echo. I don't know what the correlation is exactly yet but...yeah. That's not an accident in my opinion.

I had made a (rather far-fetched, admittedly) bit of speculation in another thread about it, in regards to the initial cause. It was in regards to the Lifestream having not existed until after Zodiark and/or Hydaelyn had made the it (I've forgotten which it was).

The gist of it was, before the Lifestream, the souls of the dead Ancients didn't actually go anywhere. They ended up just sort of hanging around the planet, and just the effects of so much raw uncontrolled power eventually pushed things to the breaking point. The Lifestream forcibly channeled the souls somewhere, thus fixing the main issue.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point.

I'm not saying this is wrong, but again, I've wondered; do Zodiark and Hydaelyn need a constant source of Aether, or, as creations of...Creation Magicks, are they not bound by the same rules that the Primals we know are?