Lack of End Game Content

[MonteCristo]

FFXIV as an MMO doesn't have to strictly follow other MMOs concept of endgame, however the term endgame as an MMO term is used the same for ALL MMOs. FFXIV included. It is not special and does not get special consideration. And yes it is a game concept, but relates only to specific games, it has a specific meaning in chess and it has a specific meaning in MMOs. Look up the meaning in the Cambridge dictionary and they only apply it to chess. Look up the definition in Merriam Webster and they apply it only to chess. It is not a general term used in all games - you don't say you approach the endgame in solitaire. You don't say you approach the endgame in Go Fish. It is also not a FFXIV specific term that has a meaning unique to FFXIV.

In chess it is when few pieces remain on the board but the game can still go on for some time. The endgame can last 100+ moves. The endgame can last hours. You wouldn't say that's the final stage, except in chess it has a specific meaning relating to the number of pieces where as final often relates to time. In MMOs it is when you have finished leveling content and are doing max level content, but the game can still go on for some time. It has a specific meaning relating to leveling.

When somebody talks about endgame they are talking about the same thing across the MMO spectrum. So when somebody says the game lacks endgame, it is 100% not valid to apply a unique definition to FFXIV and say "of course it has endgame", that's called being disingenuous. Now you can say it refers to the second definition of endgame, which merriam webster defines as the final stages of anything. However, since we're in an MMO forum talking about MMOs, and the OP specifically clarified it to mean max level, common sense would dictate we're talking about endgame the way it's used for MMOs.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

This 100% voices my thoughts as well...alot of this thread has been people dancing around the real issue when in my honest opinion it has been crystal clear.

[linay]

cut due to forum restriction

Yes, there is a special meaning when it comes to chess, but there is also a generic meaning. You don't have to apply the word to every game, but if you do apply it to a game, there is still a relationship between the generic meaning and the special meaning for that particular game. Even the special meaning for chess still fits the generic meaning. And that's the point. You apply the meaning to a game, not a genre. Chess is a board game, but the meaning of endgame for chess doesn't necessarily make sense if applied to another board game.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Well, agreed there because none of those fits any reasonable definition of endgame for FFXIV. Not every content is endgame content, otherwise endgame loses its meaning entirely.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

Either you're misreading what I said, or you're applying how endgame works in a game that doesn't work like FFXIV to FFXIV. If it's content that requires you to finish the x.0 MSQ to unlock, meaning your character has to reach level cap with at least one combat job before you can even begin that content, how can it not be considered endgame? Again, the only reason would be if you're applying how endgame works in another game to FFXIV.

[Penthea]

Exactly! Take WoW for example.. I never really found farming azerite or world quests to be "thrilling". But i was kept busy and entertained.

From what I hear you are in a very small minority if you found azerite anything more than tolerable. Many would say "entertained" is a strong word for that and world quests you can do in your sleep. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

The FFXIV devs aren't like the WoW devs. They do not expect you to and do not want you to play only this game all the time. They have said they want their players to be able to keep up to date with the content without sacrificing time spent on other games or other activities.

After sometimes needing to treat WoW like a job, I welcomed the more laid back pace FFXIV demands as a minimum to keep up with content. I don't feel like I'm going to fall behind if I do not want to or cannot play the game for a few days. I can take a short trip somewhere without worrying about being able to cap weekly stuff on time before the next lockout because it can easily be done in just two days. I do log in nearly every day, but I enjoy the freedom of not needing to.

Also FFXIV has never been all about end-game. It's a Final Fantasy, which means the journey matters just as much as the destination.

[Kaylessa]

Yes, there is a special meaning when it comes to chess, but there is also a generic meaning. You don't have to apply the word to every game, but if you do apply it to a game, there is still a relationship between the generic meaning and the special meaning for that particular game. Even the special meaning for chess still fits the generic meaning.

There doesn't have to be and no it doesn't. Specific communities will develop their own lingo, and that lingo may have very different meanings than the colloquial. Here's some examples:

A walk in baseball is the act of being gifted first base after 4 pitches arrived outside of the strike zone. How does this line up with the colloquial meaning of the word, especially if the batter jogged to first base?

Walking in cricket is leaving the field without being given out by the umpire, you don't have to actually 'walk' off the field.

Being knocked out in boxing can mean being unable to get up after 10 seconds, a meaning much more synonymous to being "knocked down".

And someone sitting through hours of an endgame in chess may not believe the endgame represents the final stages of anything.

And that's the point. You apply the meaning to a game, not a genre. Chess is a board game, but the meaning of endgame for chess doesn't necessarily make sense if applied to another board game.

In some cases yes, in some cases no. Communities develop a language, and if the community in question represents a genre then the lingo they develop will represent a genre. If the community in question represents a game, then the lingo in question will represent a game.

Either you're misreading what I said, or you're applying how endgame works in a game that doesn't work like FFXIV to FFXIV. If it's content that requires you to finish the x.0 MSQ to unlock, meaning your character has to reach level cap with at least one combat job before you can even begin that content, how can it not be considered endgame? Again, the only reason would be if you're applying how endgame works in another game to FFXIV.

The MMO community developed their specific meaning of endgame to be relevant for MMOs. FFXIV is an MMO. The term works fine in FFXIV, meaning it represents a concept that is specific to MMOs and that concept can be represented by a single word.

Endgame when related to MMOs means max level content. If you think otherwise then you're wrong, it's that simple. If you're leveling another job you are not participating in max level content. You are participating in leveling content.

Actually, just call your idea post-story content. That's far more accurate.

[linay]

Actually, just call your idea post-story content. That's far more accurate.

Well, considering the MSQ is the only required and central content in this game, anything post story is endgame.

[The-Real-Link]

Played WoW for 8+ years. Played FF since launch. Would I love more bosses? Sure. But what is here is challenging enough for my group of friends in our static and I to have a blast with. Yes, does WoW provide more ways to work on endgame day after day? Sure. But with BFA, how much of that honestly feels compelling, rewarding, and fun? Just more M+ and AP grinds just to stay current with the raid and then the whole randomness of M+ and that community.

FF's shouldn't be seen as a detriment because you can *finish* it and actually play other games, relax, or wait for Ultimate. There's a reason I'm playing FF full time now despite WoW having more content.

[Nemmar]

I watched the FFXIVARR documentary last night and the director/producer said he doesn't want to create a game where you feel pressured to log in every day. He is ok with you just coming back to the game every time there is a patch/expansion with stuff you want, play through it and go chill, cause people have lives and he doesn't want the game to get in the way of that.

And thank god for that. Last thing i'd want is that cancerous AP system that WoW has. I hate it with a passion. I literally feel like i'm in a hamster wheel. It is so slow and unrewarding and it made me burn out on Legion. No to AP systems. Worst system ever.

If you make an end-game system, please make something like SWTOR's crates of goodies. It's a complementary gear acquisition method + cosmetics.

[Hawklaser]

I wish for content to have more longevity rather than “it’s so easy you blow through it in an hour and then only left to grind it each week for x”. The devs work really hard, and I just feel like things could stand to be made enjoyable for longer than the extreme short term. Will the general content ever be like this? Probably not, but I wish the high end could be at least. How? I dunno. I would like at least one extra boss, but otherwise I dunno.

Personally, it would probably take more than a boss or two for it to be enjoyable for more than the short term. But I quoted this spot for a different reason. People keep bringing up the point of the devs wanting us to be able to take breaks and play other games and not end up feeling behind, which is great, but oddly enough one of the things that gets people to trend to not taking breaks is things like weekly caps. You miss a week of play currently your out 450 tomestones worth of gear, and 1 edens worth of drops permanently. The more weekly caps there are, and the more important to progress they are, the more punishing a break is. This is a big part of why raiders made static raid groups and set static raid times in order to ensure they were clearing the content in its weekly cap.

So forgive me if I don't fully buy into the "Devs want us to feel like can take a break" argument for lack of endgame content as long as weekly caps exist. It's a great sentiment to have, but I'd also like devs that would leave us the option to pour in hundreds of hours of farming the current endgame in one week if we so choose. As ultimately its our time to decide how to spend. The devs can say they want us to take breaks as much as they want, but the weekly gate on certain endgame content gear points to them also wanting us to play regularly.

And before it is brought up, yes I do understand one of the main purposes of a weekly cap is to slow down the consumption of content, it's just it also has the side effect of creating the feeling of not being able to take a break if used too much or in the wrong spots.

[linay]

Personally, it would probably take more than a boss or two for it to be enjoyable for more than the short term. But I quoted this spot for a different reason. People keep bringing up the point of the devs wanting us to be able to take breaks and play other games and not end up feeling behind, which is great, but oddly enough one of the things that gets people to trend to not taking breaks is things like weekly caps. You miss a week of play currently your out 450 tomestones worth of gear, and 1 edens worth of drops permanently. The more weekly caps there are, and the more important to progress they are, the more punishing a break is. This is a big part of why raiders made static raid groups and set static raid times in order to ensure they were clearing the content in its weekly cap.

So forgive me if I don't fully buy into the "Devs want us to feel like can take a break" argument for lack of endgame content as long as weekly caps exist. It's a great sentiment to have, but I'd also like devs that would leave us the option to pour in hundreds of hours of farming the current endgame in one week if we so choose. As ultimately its our time to decide how to spend. The devs can say they want us to take breaks as much as they want, but the weekly gate on certain endgame content gear points to them also wanting us to play regularly.

And before it is brought up, yes I do understand one of the main purposes of a weekly cap is to slow down the consumption of content, it's just it also has the side effect of creating the feeling of not being able to take a break if used too much or in the wrong spots.

Because even with weekly cap, some people still run out of things to do, either because they don't care about gear past clearing the content (they'll just get HQ crafted gear next tier anyway or quickly farm the gear once the cap is lifted) or because they finished the weekly cap and have nothing to do afterward (either for the rest of the week or, if they completely finished gearing up, for the rest of the tier).

[Hawklaser]

Because even with weekly cap, some people still run out of things to do, either because they don't care about gear past clearing the content (they'll just get HQ crafted gear next tier anyway or quickly farm the gear once the cap is lifted) or because they finished the weekly cap and have nothing to do afterward (either for the rest of the week or, if they completely finished gearing up, for the rest of the tier).

And that is perfectly fine, just as is the suggestion that more could be done regarding end game content.

Everyone is going to consume content at different rates. And some have different tastes in content. But between this thread and the dungeon design one, its pretty clear to me that there is a demand for more challenging and varied battle content across all difficulty tiers, as well as those that would like a more robust endgame scene. Which both could be addressed together.

While many may be happy with the current state of the game, ARR's initial release felt more robust to me on this front. People are willing to give the devs time to figure out the best way to develop a robust endgame for XIV, hence the thread, but eventually their patience will run out, or competition will beat SE to the punch. Time isn't always in the Dev's favor.

Edit: Should also note that a persons speed of content consumption itself is not indicative of a lack of content. Just that those that consume content faster will encounter a lack of content faster. The two are not directly related beyond the fact they both deal with content. IE the book War and Peace has the same amount of content irregardless of if it takes you one day or one year to read it. So people consuming all of XIV's content in one day or one month is not the underlying issue. Its the total amount of content available to fill a specific area of game play that some feel is lacking.