Lack of End Game Content

[Kaylessa]

Have I understood your frustrations? Or did I misunderstand you both?

Read the first post on page 88, then answer your own question.

EDIT: The only thing I've tried to do is stop the complete derailing of the thread from inane, off topic replies.

[Misutoraru]

Relic questlines are long, grindy and takes effort and skill (sometimes) to complete. And relic weapons and gear tend to be the second or thirdbest gear you can get in the game. So my advice would be to quit the game and come back when the relic questlines are in the game. People suspect it might come during 5.1 or 5.2.

FFXIV is not WoW. Nor will it ever be like WoW. FFXIV does not demand you login everyday to do grinds unless you have a personal goal for it. (Beast tribes daily grind to get glamour, mounts or story, and emotes)
Now also how to improve endgame content, well if you look at numbers and how many people do raids. You might be surprised to see most people only run normal 8 man once or twice and then they are off to do other things. This is the core playerbase. From now on I w lifeblood of this game. Not the hardcore raiders. The core is what buy items in the cashshops, buys special editions, merch, Alpha plushie (serious I pay an arm and a leg for one!) etc. And how do you keep the core happy? By giving them options. Such as Golden saucer and its massive amounts of content, Hildy questline, glamour contests, Housing, treasure maps, mount hunting, hunts, card collection, chocobo breeding, mahjong, level other jobs, play music in the major cities, roleplaying, achivment hunting (Some achivments are very hard and time consuming to get but you do tend to get nifty items), FC events, crafting, Side quests. I mgiht have missed some. But these thing I posted here is the cores endgame content.

From my understanding you two want more raidlike endgame content? Of course correct me if I am wrong there. But this is not the game for such things. You get a raid every 3-3.5 months And that is it. And more expert dungeons thrown in of course, and new items. You could try PvP and start a ranked group. PvP has rewards that can only be gotten as a pvper such as a robotic flying horse mount! (I have one of them it is amazing!)

Well I guess they have the right to demand more content catering to their taste, even if the dev is clearly targeting the more causal audience. That’s totally fine to have an opinion, and that’s what I thought originally, until they drag other players in, claiming lack of hardcore content is the result of the causal community. It is like going to Disney land and complain the roller coasters are too family friendly and this is the result of family going to theme park. I knew I have to stop taking those claim seriously

[Zabuza]

Zabuza and Kaylessa, you both can also stop playing the game if you don't feel happy about the current state of it. It is ok to take a break.

Now to answer your both questions about endgame content, over the past years FFXIV has always been a slowburner in terms of story, content and such. Since I think Havensward they always come out with 1 wing 8 man with 4 bosses Normal and 4-5 bosses Savage. Then the patch after they come out with the 24 man raid which will take maybe a few hours to complete. Later on you will then have the Relic questline, which might be the thing you both are after.

Relic questlines are long, grindy and takes effort and skill (sometimes) to complete. And relic weapons and gear tend to be the second or thirdbest gear you can get in the game. So my advice would be to quit the game and come back when the relic questlines are in the game. People suspect it might come during 5.1 or 5.2.

FFXIV is not WoW. Nor will it ever be like WoW. FFXIV does not demand you login everyday to do grinds unless you have a personal goal for it. (Beast tribes daily grind to get glamour, mounts or story, and emotes)
Now also how to improve endgame content, well if you look at numbers and how many people do raids. You might be surprised to see most people only run normal 8 man once or twice and then they are off to do other things. This is the core playerbase. From now on I will call them core.

The core is the lifeblood of this game. Not the hardcore raiders. The core is what buy items in the cashshops, buys special editions, merch, Alpha plushie (serious I pay an arm and a leg for one!) etc. And how do you keep the core happy? By giving them options. Such as Golden saucer and its massive amounts of content, Hildy questline, glamour contests, Housing, treasure maps, mount hunting, hunts, card collection, chocobo breeding, mahjong, level other jobs, play music in the major cities, roleplaying, achivment hunting (Some achivments are very hard and time consuming to get but you do tend to get nifty items), FC events, crafting, Side quests. I mgiht have missed some. But these thing I posted here is the cores endgame content.

From my understanding you two want more raidlike endgame content? Of course correct me if I am wrong there. But this is not the game for such things. You get a raid every 3-3.5 months And that is it. And more expert dungeons thrown in of course, and new items. You could try PvP and start a ranked group. PvP has rewards that can only be gotten as a pvper such as a robotic flying horse mount! (I have one of them it is amazing!)

But I understand that frustration that you reach the end of Shb and see lack of content which you are used to in other games. Which is fine to feel like that. But you do well to remember that FFXIV design is built around the core. Keep the core happy and the game will keep growing. And sometimes you need to find your own endgame, maybe try to find where Alpha is hiding in the game this week, I ones found him in Mor Dohna. Make a contest finding him in the FC.

But ym bottomline here is, FFXIV has endgame content for many different types of people. Sure some will not see the things I listed as endgame since it is not raiding or high end dungeons. But for people doing them it is endgame content.

My advice if you want to take it, is to take a break from the game. It is ok to take a break, I took a break mid stormblood and came back after 5 months felt good to come back with new energy

Have I understood your frustrations? Or did I misunderstand you both?

I do unsub. Often. Because I get BiS gear from Savage, aka clearing it multiple times, and then get bored. I in fact spend more time unsubbed than subbed. I don't enjoy that.

Well I guess they have the right to demand more content catering to their taste, even if the dev is clearly targeting the more causal audience. That’s totally fine to have an opinion, and that’s what I thought originally, until they drag other players in, claiming lack of hardcore content is the result of the causal community. It is like going to Disney land and complain the roller coasters are too family friendly and this is the result of family going to theme park. I knew I have to stop taking those claim seriously

I did that because casuals started attacking me with a stance of 'how dare I try to change anything in this game.' So I replied with they basically changed the entire genre, and this game, which are both true. This game used to be higher in difficulty. If you want to stop taking my requests seriously just because I brought up a counterpoint to those who tried to shut me down, then be my guest.

[ApolloGenX]

I think end game is horrible... mainly because their quest formula is the worst. Grinding of instances is all this game has.... not a single quest with the depth of even a moderate to long Everquest questline.

Maybe if they had decent quests, those would be great to do instead of spamming instances.... but the oversimplified formula won't support it.

Even the "quests" for the MSQ are terrible... but you do them to hear more story.

[Hanzar]

I do unsub. Often. Because I get BiS gear from Savage, aka clearing it multiple times, and then get bored. I in fact spend more time unsubbed than subbed. I don't enjoy that.

Hmm, if you don't enjoy that. Have you tried breaking from that pattern of getting BiS? And just do something completely different in the game? Since from what I read you stuck in the same pattern now get BiS unsub and come back do same thing and unsub. Of course I would also get tired of annoyed of content that way.

[Krotoan]

Hmm, if you don't enjoy that. Have you tried breaking from that pattern of getting BiS? And just do something completely different in the game? Since from what I read you stuck in the same pattern now get BiS unsub and come back do same thing and unsub. Of course I would also get tired of annoyed of content that way.

To be fair you can't just change the way you have fun. It's pretty subjective. While I disagree with a lot of their points it's pretty unarguable if someone says they just don't enjoy stuff. The two biggest posters in this thread have several at least 70 jobs so it's not like they're completely avoiding everything except endgame.

[linay]

The debate over the definition of endgame has been whether it refers to all content introduced at max level, or only the very hardest content introduced at max level.

With respect to FFXIV, where the only true progression is the MSQ, raiding is a side content even when the story is related to the MSQ. So it wouldn't make sense to consider such content to be exclusively the endgame when it's optional even as progression, as it will be bypassed as soon as a latter patch introduces better gear (or at least higher item level) from easier content.

Only two definitions of endgame would make sense for FFXIV.

1. Any content that requires level cap to do.
2. Any content that requires completion of x.0 MSQ to unlock, even if you can then do it on a job that is not max level.

So while leveling itself doesn't fit either of those, doing endgame content on another job is a valid suggestion to make in FFXIV for someone who has done the content on their main job. And it is only a suggestion, which can be rejected as a solution depending on player preference (no one should have to play a job they don't like), but not as being off topic to the thread.

Endgame is an MMO concept

Endgame is a game concept. It's the final stage of a game. The endgame to a chess game is doing similar things as in the beginning of the game, only potentially with less pieces on the board. FFXIV doesn't have to strictly follow other MMO's concept of endgame.

I mean, ideally there could be suggestions about how to improve this area of content. Constructive criticism. It seems pointless to continue arguing about whether things like level 80 Chocobo racing are considered endgame or not...This doesn't really help anything. The discussion has probably run its course at this point. But I would want to keep it visible for the devs to see.

That is fair. Again, which is why some people have said it would've been better if this thread was constructed in such a way to elicit such responses rather than complaining about a lack of content and asking whether people feel satisfied with it and how they keep busy, but only for specific content.

As for what could be done to improve, as I've said, it's difficult to say without messing with the patch cycle that the developer seems to like. I like the comparison of FFXIV that I heard on YouTube to a wide shallow pool where the enjoyment comes in at swimming across the pool rather than diving deep. FFXIV has a diverse content to partake in, but if you only enjoy a small part of it, then it can leave you feel unsatisfied unless you find a way to prolong your enjoyment of said content, like redoing it on a different job that you may like.

[Misutoraru]

I did that because casuals started attacking me with a stance of 'how dare I try to change anything in this game.' So I replied with they basically changed the entire genre, and this game, which are both true. This game used to be higher in difficulty. If you want to stop taking my requests seriously just because I brought up a counterpoint to those who tried to shut me down, then be my guest.

You dont have to drag yourself to their level

SE is not charity, they make money and want to make more, and Yoshida have to follow.
I do agree it is the community that kill hard content (just look at A3S/A4S), but as I mention SE is not some indie company, they need money to produce more content, they need money to run the game and they want more profit out of it, and the best way is to cater the largest audience

There are MMO purely focus on end game high tier dungeon and raiding, in this case it is just not FFXIV unfortunately

[LadyKairi]

snip

To be fair, just because something has always been one way, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have things it could do to be better. I mean, this game used to be harder than it used to be, but it changed to be easier to bring in more people. Change can be good. People don’t have to like it, but change is a healthy part of life. Am I happy the game changed to be as easy as it is now? Not really, but I’ve accepted it. Sure the formula works right now, but how long is it going to last before more people get bored? I feel like it’s gonna hit a peak point, but then a decline will start. When that’ll be, I don’t know.

We aren’t asking for xiv to be wow. WoW is a failing game on the decline. However, games have strengths and weaknesses, and it’s not a bad thing to compare games. For instance, I don’t like a lot about WoW, but one thing I do like about it is how unique their quests can be. Carrying wounded soldiers to healers to save them, using flame throwers to burn spider webs are just a couple examples. I would love more interactive quests like that here. Looks like they’re working on it though, since we’ve been able to play as certain npcs in the MSQ. I hate WoW just as much as the next guy/gal, but I’m not so blind as to ignore the fact that it has a couple great qualities that could be beneficial to xiv. Same for other games, it’s not just WoW. It’s just WoW was “the king” for so long and is so well known, I feel like it’s only natural that’s the game people tend to use as an example. I feel like a lot of people here need to put their hatred of WoW aside and think rationally, rather than immediately go on the attack as soon as someone brings up WoW. It doesn’t contribute to a discussion at all.

I’m sorry, but you don’t have to be a casual in order to make purchases to support the game. That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I’m a raider, and yet I’ve made plenty of purchases from the SE store, the mogstation, etc. I have the Ultima statue, I’ve purchased countless outfits, dyes, mounts, fantasias, and I would purchase others if I didn’t have rl things to save for right now. And you don’t have to be a casual to enjoy fluff content like housing, fcs and such. I do a lot with and for my FC. They’re my online family 100%. I have a house I’ve decorated with care, I enjoy glamour, etc. I do not recall anyone saying they don’t enjoy any of the fluff, however we’ve said true endgame content is the primary content of interest to us and could stand to be built on a bit.

Again endgame is max level content, not anything you do after hitting max level. Just because people do them after reaching 80 doesn’t make them endgame content. It’s still filler content pre or post 80.

I know this post isn’t aimed at myself, but I take plenty of time away from the game. Especially after my static exhausts a raid tier, I prioritize rl. I’ve even tried to play other games, but XIV always brings me back. It has my friends here that have done more for me than most would in other FCs. I don’t exaggerate when I say they’re my online family. I’m an officer, so I’m supposed to be there to make sure issues are handled and I tend to people who need help. I don’t mind helping people clear content and doing filler or fluff content with them, however it would be nice to Have something for myself to enjoy to break up the monotony of running the same dated content over and over after exhausting raids.

I know that this is a thread for endgame content and not just the high end stuff. There could stand to be more level 80 content in general, especially instances. I just personally wish there was more challenging stuff to do to keep myself stimulated. I wish for content to have more longevity rather than “it’s so easy you blow through it in an hour and then only left to grind it each week for x”. The devs work really hard, and I just feel like things could stand to be made enjoyable for longer than the extreme short term. Will the general content ever be like this? Probably not, but I wish the high end could be at least. How? I dunno. I would like at least one extra boss, but otherwise I dunno. I plan on trying ultimate again, but I’ve already come to terms that I’m not skilled enough to clear, and I’m not gonna pretend that I am. In regards to that piece of content, I’m content living vicariously through the streamers who can. Savage is my sweet spot.

I do gotta say, though, I’m super excited that crafters get their endgame content soon. It shall be interesting to see how they enjoy the Ishgard stuff once it comes out.

[Kaylessa]

With respect to FFXIV, where the only true progression is the MSQ, raiding is a side content even when the story is related to the MSQ. So it wouldn't make sense to consider such content to be exclusively the endgame when it's optional even as progression, as it will be bypassed as soon as a latter patch introduces better gear (or at least higher item level) from easier content.

Only two definitions of endgame would make sense for FFXIV.

1. Any content that requires level cap to do.
2. Any content that requires completion of x.0 MSQ to unlock, even if you can then do it on a job that is not max level.

So while leveling itself doesn't fit either of those, doing endgame content on another job is a valid suggestion to make in FFXIV for someone who has done the content on their main job. And it is only a suggestion, which can be rejected as a solution depending on player preference (no one should have to play a job they don't like), but not as being off topic to the thread.

Endgame is a game concept. It's the final stage of a game. The endgame to a chess game is doing similar things as in the beginning of the game, only potentially with less pieces on the board. FFXIV doesn't have to strictly follow other MMO's concept of endgame.

FFXIV as an MMO doesn't have to strictly follow other MMOs concept of endgame, however the term endgame as an MMO term is used the same for ALL MMOs. FFXIV included. It is not special and does not get special consideration. And yes it is a game concept, but relates only to specific games, it has a specific meaning in chess and it has a specific meaning in MMOs. Look up the meaning in the Cambridge dictionary and they only apply it to chess. Look up the definition in Merriam Webster and they apply it only to chess. It is not a general term used in all games - you don't say you approach the endgame in solitaire. You don't say you approach the endgame in Go Fish. It is also not a FFXIV specific term that has a meaning unique to FFXIV.

In chess it is when few pieces remain on the board but the game can still go on for some time. The endgame can last 100+ moves. The endgame can last hours. You wouldn't say that's the final stage, except in chess it has a specific meaning relating to the number of pieces where as final often relates to time. In MMOs it is when you have finished leveling content and are doing max level content, but the game can still go on for some time. It has a specific meaning relating to leveling.

When somebody talks about endgame they are talking about the same thing across the MMO spectrum. So when somebody says the game lacks endgame, it is 100% not valid to apply a unique definition to FFXIV and say "of course it has endgame", that's called being disingenuous. Now you can say it refers to the second definition of endgame, which merriam webster defines as the final stages of anything. Funny enough applying that definition to chess would probably get you a different definition to endgame than what is the norm. However, since we're in an MMO forum talking about MMOs, and the OP specifically clarified it to mean max level, common sense would dictate we're talking about endgame the way it's used for MMOs, just like talking about it in chess circles gets you the specific definition relating to chess.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.