Lack of End Game Content

[Kaylessa]

With respect to FFXIV, where the only true progression is the MSQ, raiding is a side content even when the story is related to the MSQ. So it wouldn't make sense to consider such content to be exclusively the endgame when it's optional even as progression, as it will be bypassed as soon as a latter patch introduces better gear (or at least higher item level) from easier content.

Only two definitions of endgame would make sense for FFXIV.

1. Any content that requires level cap to do.
2. Any content that requires completion of x.0 MSQ to unlock, even if you can then do it on a job that is not max level.

So while leveling itself doesn't fit either of those, doing endgame content on another job is a valid suggestion to make in FFXIV for someone who has done the content on their main job. And it is only a suggestion, which can be rejected as a solution depending on player preference (no one should have to play a job they don't like), but not as being off topic to the thread.

Endgame is a game concept. It's the final stage of a game. The endgame to a chess game is doing similar things as in the beginning of the game, only potentially with less pieces on the board. FFXIV doesn't have to strictly follow other MMO's concept of endgame.

FFXIV as an MMO doesn't have to strictly follow other MMOs concept of endgame, however the term endgame as an MMO term is used the same for ALL MMOs. FFXIV included. It is not special and does not get special consideration. And yes it is a game concept, but relates only to specific games, it has a specific meaning in chess and it has a specific meaning in MMOs. Look up the meaning in the Cambridge dictionary and they only apply it to chess. Look up the definition in Merriam Webster and they apply it only to chess. It is not a general term used in all games - you don't say you approach the endgame in solitaire. You don't say you approach the endgame in Go Fish. It is also not a FFXIV specific term that has a meaning unique to FFXIV.

In chess it is when few pieces remain on the board but the game can still go on for some time. The endgame can last 100+ moves. The endgame can last hours. You wouldn't say that's the final stage, except in chess it has a specific meaning relating to the number of pieces where as final often relates to time. In MMOs it is when you have finished leveling content and are doing max level content, but the game can still go on for some time. It has a specific meaning relating to leveling.

When somebody talks about endgame they are talking about the same thing across the MMO spectrum. So when somebody says the game lacks endgame, it is 100% not valid to apply a unique definition to FFXIV and say "of course it has endgame", that's called being disingenuous. Now you can say it refers to the second definition of endgame, which merriam webster defines as the final stages of anything. Funny enough applying that definition to chess would probably get you a different definition to endgame than what is the norm. However, since we're in an MMO forum talking about MMOs, and the OP specifically clarified it to mean max level, common sense would dictate we're talking about endgame the way it's used for MMOs, just like talking about it in chess circles gets you the specific definition relating to chess.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

[MonteCristo]

FFXIV as an MMO doesn't have to strictly follow other MMOs concept of endgame, however the term endgame as an MMO term is used the same for ALL MMOs. FFXIV included. It is not special and does not get special consideration. And yes it is a game concept, but relates only to specific games, it has a specific meaning in chess and it has a specific meaning in MMOs. Look up the meaning in the Cambridge dictionary and they only apply it to chess. Look up the definition in Merriam Webster and they apply it only to chess. It is not a general term used in all games - you don't say you approach the endgame in solitaire. You don't say you approach the endgame in Go Fish. It is also not a FFXIV specific term that has a meaning unique to FFXIV.

In chess it is when few pieces remain on the board but the game can still go on for some time. The endgame can last 100+ moves. The endgame can last hours. You wouldn't say that's the final stage, except in chess it has a specific meaning relating to the number of pieces where as final often relates to time. In MMOs it is when you have finished leveling content and are doing max level content, but the game can still go on for some time. It has a specific meaning relating to leveling.

When somebody talks about endgame they are talking about the same thing across the MMO spectrum. So when somebody says the game lacks endgame, it is 100% not valid to apply a unique definition to FFXIV and say "of course it has endgame", that's called being disingenuous. Now you can say it refers to the second definition of endgame, which merriam webster defines as the final stages of anything. However, since we're in an MMO forum talking about MMOs, and the OP specifically clarified it to mean max level, common sense would dictate we're talking about endgame the way it's used for MMOs.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

This 100% voices my thoughts as well...alot of this thread has been people dancing around the real issue when in my honest opinion it has been crystal clear.

[linay]

cut due to forum restriction

Yes, there is a special meaning when it comes to chess, but there is also a generic meaning. You don't have to apply the word to every game, but if you do apply it to a game, there is still a relationship between the generic meaning and the special meaning for that particular game. Even the special meaning for chess still fits the generic meaning. And that's the point. You apply the meaning to a game, not a genre. Chess is a board game, but the meaning of endgame for chess doesn't necessarily make sense if applied to another board game.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Well, agreed there because none of those fits any reasonable definition of endgame for FFXIV. Not every content is endgame content, otherwise endgame loses its meaning entirely.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

Either you're misreading what I said, or you're applying how endgame works in a game that doesn't work like FFXIV to FFXIV. If it's content that requires you to finish the x.0 MSQ to unlock, meaning your character has to reach level cap with at least one combat job before you can even begin that content, how can it not be considered endgame? Again, the only reason would be if you're applying how endgame works in another game to FFXIV.

[Kaylessa]

Yes, there is a special meaning when it comes to chess, but there is also a generic meaning. You don't have to apply the word to every game, but if you do apply it to a game, there is still a relationship between the generic meaning and the special meaning for that particular game. Even the special meaning for chess still fits the generic meaning.

There doesn't have to be and no it doesn't. Specific communities will develop their own lingo, and that lingo may have very different meanings than the colloquial. Here's some examples:

A walk in baseball is the act of being gifted first base after 4 pitches arrived outside of the strike zone. How does this line up with the colloquial meaning of the word, especially if the batter jogged to first base?

Walking in cricket is leaving the field without being given out by the umpire, you don't have to actually 'walk' off the field.

Being knocked out in boxing can mean being unable to get up after 10 seconds, a meaning much more synonymous to being "knocked down".

And someone sitting through hours of an endgame in chess may not believe the endgame represents the final stages of anything.

And that's the point. You apply the meaning to a game, not a genre. Chess is a board game, but the meaning of endgame for chess doesn't necessarily make sense if applied to another board game.

In some cases yes, in some cases no. Communities develop a language, and if the community in question represents a genre then the lingo they develop will represent a genre. If the community in question represents a game, then the lingo in question will represent a game.

Either you're misreading what I said, or you're applying how endgame works in a game that doesn't work like FFXIV to FFXIV. If it's content that requires you to finish the x.0 MSQ to unlock, meaning your character has to reach level cap with at least one combat job before you can even begin that content, how can it not be considered endgame? Again, the only reason would be if you're applying how endgame works in another game to FFXIV.

The MMO community developed their specific meaning of endgame to be relevant for MMOs. FFXIV is an MMO. The term works fine in FFXIV, meaning it represents a concept that is specific to MMOs and that concept can be represented by a single word.

Endgame when related to MMOs means max level content. If you think otherwise then you're wrong, it's that simple. If you're leveling another job you are not participating in max level content. You are participating in leveling content.

Actually, just call your idea post-story content. That's far more accurate.

[linay]

Actually, just call your idea post-story content. That's far more accurate.

Well, considering the MSQ is the only required and central content in this game, anything post story is endgame.