Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[GrenGarm]

Because i am actually asking a question? i want to know if you know of any MMO with good talent trees, and if so how many of them are there, so i can go look them up and see how they do it.

So much assumption by the OP. Sigh. Stop trying to assume everything, because by default you dont know if you are right.

About the balnce thing, how can that not be a goal in this game? isnt that the goal in every game?

Also straw man argument? are you serious? You yourself said that every MMO and RPG outside of this one had a talent tree and when i ask for examples of such "every" MMO i am the one making a straw man argument ....are you serious?

You created a worst-case scenario situation where the game was basically unplayable for your SCH job and held that up as the reason why the system wouldn't work. That's the definition of a strawman argument.

Balance among jobs is important. Balance among talent choices less so in a game like 14 where the vast majority of encounter difficulties aren't tuned to require top parses to beat.

Do you actually need examples of games with character customization or are you just trolling me? I mean, if you really haven't played other RPG-type games in the last 20 years, then I will gladly recommend some.

[YanderePrincess]

Based on the responses in this thread, I'm no longer convinced that this game is any less toxic than WoW.

Just because people disagree with you, you're calling them toxic?

[battleshadow66]

Just because people disagree with you, you're calling them toxic?

Ironically, looking at his own posts here, he was the toxic one.

[reyre]

You created a worst-case scenario situation where the game was basically unplayable for your SCH job and held that up as the reason why the system wouldn't work. That's the definition of a strawman argument.

Balance among jobs is important. Balance among talent choices less so in a game like 14 where the vast majority of encounter difficulties aren't tuned to require top parses to beat.

Do you actually need examples of games with character customization or are you just trolling me? I mean, if you really haven't played other RPG-type games in the last 20 years, then I will gladly recommend some.

How can i put this, you also created a best-case scenario where the game (jobs) are basically fixed by the aperance of talents, and held up as the reason why the system would work. Also i did not do that in fact i never said anything about sch, you need to learn how to read, the only part that i was mocking with the sch example was your sentence that said that balance its not the "goal for a game like this..." or are you saying you did not wrote this? If balance is important is important over all not "less important" among talents (which by default would need the vast majority of time balancing) that is an assumption.

You throw the strawman argment left and right, while not understanding what it actually means. Either way in several post of your own you assume the devs will do a good job, while simultaniously critizicing people because they assume the oposite, why is it that your assumptin is better than others? If the vast majority (actually all of them) of encounters do not need top dps why should this game have a talent tree, that affects skills why not be simply cosmetic to skills? it wont make the game better just because it exist an example is that it already existed in ff14 at some point, yes it wasnt the best version of it, but you (again) assume it will be good for no reason whatsoever, you ask peple for reasonable arguments while providing none of your own, you only have opinions and if so why is it then that your opinion is better than the others?

I ask very specifically MMOs (rpg or no), that use the talent tree in an organic functional manner. I asked a pletora of questions which you have not answered at all, instead you create new arguments instead of answering the questions that i make and pretend that by doing so your argument is reasonable or more valid without actually saying anything, in fact as i go back and reread your posts, you actually havent even said why that would work or why the concern of others might not be true, you just assume they are false. So yes plpease tell me what MMOs are you are refering to, so i can provide a better argument.

[GrenGarm]

Just because people disagree with you, you're calling them toxic?

No, the personal attacks, which another user already posted about in this thread to call people out on.

Was hoping for a good discussion, but it's 90% negativity right now.

[GrenGarm]

Ironically, looking at his own posts here, he was the toxic one.

I haven't attacked anyone personally. I've tried my best to refute their arguments arguing against my point. If that makes me toxic, then so is literally everyone on this forum.

[reyre]

I haven't attacked anyone personally. I've tried my best to refute their arguments arguing against my point. If that makes me toxic, then so is literally everyone on this forum.

I agree you havent, nor should you, but you arent refuting anything, literally your post boils down to: Its a straw man arguement or its fun because it gives player choices. The first part is pointless and is more akin to an ad hominem than straw man but not the point really. The second one while its true that said system might be fun for the players it also raises questions, what kind of system? what kind of talent tree? what makes this system better than others? other than the idea of flexibility what are the advantages? will it really be flexible? what about group content how will it work then? how will those talents work? ...etc

Yet as i said before your only argument is it will be okay because the devs might not screw up and its fun. That doesnt really an answer to any of those questions and if people uses your example to say or ilustrate why that system might be bad, you call that straw man argument, if one creates an example of its own to do the same ilustrate how and why could be a bad system (just like you use examples of why it might be a good system) you call that a straw man argument.

[Nyoraii]

Because i am actually asking a question? i want to know if you know of any MMO with good talent trees, and if so how many of them are there, so i can go look them up and see how they do it.

So much assumption by the OP. Sigh. Stop trying to assume everything, because by default you dont know if you are right.

About the balnce thing, how can that not be a goal in this game? isnt that the goal in every game?

Also straw man argument? are you serious? You yourself said that every MMO and RPG outside of this one had a talent tree and when i ask for examples of such "every" MMO i am the one making a straw man argument ....are you serious?

Hey, not really a "talent tree" but Ragnarok Online has great build variety with lots of player choices and builds created by the sheer creativity of the playerbase, completely different from this game. Some builds may be very OP, while others may only be used because they're interesting or have very specific uses, like a build focused on killing undeads or a support songs/dances focused build. Also Guild Wars 1 had an extremely wide build variety.

Really, just think about it, playing a tabletop RPG, would you prefer if everybody got a sheet that was already filled with everyone's stats and skill choices or would you prefer to fill it yourself? I don't remember any RPGs I played where there wasn't any choices to be made in regards to how I play. In pokémon you can choose your skills, even if some are bad; in FF7 you can choose your materia, even if some are bad; in FFT you can build either very OP comps or totally underpowered comps, but that's the beauty of having choices, you can tailor the experience to your liking.

Now, I'm not really defending a talent tree for FFXIV, because I don't really believe they have the competence necessary to do it.

[reyre]

Hey, not really a "talent tree" but Ragnarok Online has great build variety with lots of player choices and builds created by the sheer creativity of the playerbase, completely different from this game. Some builds may be very OP, while others may only be used because they're interesting or have very specific uses, like a build focused on killing undeads or a support songs/dances focused build. Also Guild Wars 1 had an extremely wide build variety.

Really, just think about it, playing a tabletop RPG, would you prefer if everybody got a sheet that was already filled with everyone's stats and skill choices or would you prefer to fill it yourself? I don't remember any RPGs I played where there wasn't any choices to be made in regards to how I play. In pokémon you can choose your skills, even if some are bad; in FF7 you can choose your materia, even if some are bad; in FFT you can build either very OP comps or totally underpowered comps, but that's the beauty of having choices, you can tailor the experience to your liking.

Now, I'm not really defending a talent tree for FFXIV, because I don't really believe they have the competence necessary to do it.

While those are some good examples, lets concentrate on the MMO simply because the single player experience makes player agency a bit different. Which is why i asked for MMOs, while there is much to be drawn from them by that same token i could say SMT nocturne, Persona (1-5), FFX, FFIX,FFXIII, ME, DDS, Hollow knight, paper mario, dead cells, The Tales Series in general....etc, and in those games the talent tree is vastly different in nocturne you have to choose what skills to take kind of like pokemon, just without the ability to ever see them again, in HK the amulet interaction is great and can make the shade night immortal, however MMOs have to handle a lot more because of the nature of the type of game.

So ragnarok i do rember palying that game and being a mnk (shockingly so), but the game is kind of build for that creativity, if we were to apply some form of it in ff14, i guess you could end up with eureka which is not fun, at least in its current iteration, other than that is just that this game doesnt have types of enemies, damage so that on its own limits what can be done, either be a dmg skill or a utility skill. Or so it sems to me.

[Nyoraii]

While those are some good examples, lets concentrate on the MMO simply because the single player experience makes player agency a bit different. Which is why i asked for MMOs, while there is much to be drawn from them by that same token i could say SMT nocturne, Persona (1-5), FFX, FFIX,FFXIII, ME, DDS, Hollow knight, paper mario, dead cells, The Tales Series in general....etc, and in those games the talent tree is vastly different in nocturne you have to choose what skills to take kind of like pokemon, just without the ability to ever see them again, in HK the amulet interaction is great and can make the shade night immortal, however MMOs have to handle a lot more because of the nature of the type of game.

So ragnarok i do rember palying that game and being a mnk (shockingly so), but the game is kind of build for that creativity, if we were to apply some form of it in ff14, i guess you could end up with eureka which is not fun, at least in its current iteration, other than that is just that this game doesnt have types of enemies, damage so that on its own limits what can be done, either be a dmg skill or a utility skill. Or so it sems to me.

I know, thinking about it, FFXIV doesn't even feel too much like a MMORPG for me, most of the time I'm either alone doing quests or in a group where people don't really communicate. It feels like an arcade experience, where each person gets a pre-made character and then you have to defeat some guy together.

Being that they pride themselves on being the most accessible MMO on the market, I don't really see them creating build variety, especifically because people can ruin their chances of succeeding if they're bad. Same reason why they trivialize content after some time I guess. Maybe if the game wasn't so focused on trials and raids and more on the MMO experience, maybe build variety would make more sense for this game. But seeing how they have difficulty balancing the builds they already have, I can't see how having more builds to balance would be a good thing to this game I guess.

Also, points for citing Nocturne, one of my favourite JRPGs of all time, Freikugel/Divine Shot/Charge build ftw.