Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Kurando]

. Talents would increase the diversity of play and enjoyment of jobs for everyone who isn't a hardcore raider, which is most of us.

The thing is though most jobs in this game get balanced around high-end content because that is where it really matters, casual content not so much regardless of whether that is the majority.

You could add diversity to a single job's kit, but then there is so many jobs that players can find something that suits their playstyle. Chances are though that any attempt to do this would be self-contained in a particular kind of instance, Eureka (Pyros, Hydratos) being an example with customisable Logos Actions that allowed jobs to become much more hybrid. Open world content just isn't challenging enough for something like talent trees though, and party content players would mostly opt or expect certain loadouts from others.

[Ardox]

If i understood correctly the main point is that customization, will either make the game better (or more interesting) or fix some issues, both of those notions are deluded, however the mian point that i was trying to make is that customization simply doesnt work well on this game for the reasons you are stating.

Besides that everything looked the same gear wise and materia wise for every player, its kind of a lie at least for MNK, since you could have some variance in SkS, going from 900-1200, that implied that everything in that spectrum was viable (and there was no need for customization) so, for MNK at least, you could see a huge diference (in materia and gear) between one player and another both being perfectly viable for end game (and casual content), to certain degree at the end of ARR was the same because of SCH speed boost so there was some diversity gear and melds wise (not taking into account accuracy at the time).

Saying that someone is deluded is attacking the person, not the argument..

To be honest, I don't even know where I stand in the debate, I was just trying to steer the debate in the right direction. It is a recurring complaint: the end game is only about getting the last gear or getting something to glamour unto the last gear. Now I feel I must point out right away that I don't mean recurring = major.

Now, players having the feeling their decisions matter does make the game better (see game theories on player agency). I don't know what the solution would look like, but I feel the debate and propositions OP have put forward is an example of player wanting their choices to matter in the game

[reyre]

Saying that someone is deluded is attacking the person, not the argument..

To be honest, I don't even know where I stand in the debate, I was just trying to steer the debate in the right direction. It is a recurring complaint: the end game is only about getting the last gear or getting something to glamour unto the last gear. Now I feel I must point out right away that I don't mean recurring = major.

Now, players having the feeling their decisions matter does make the game better (see game theories on player agency). I don't know what the solution would look like, but I feel the debate and propositions OP have put forward is an example of player wanting their choices to matter in the game

Oh no i did not meant to attack him just his ideas, so perhaps deluded wasnt the right word for it, missguided notions? Naive notions? Incomplete notions? Ignorant notions? or is that also too offensive?
but what does deluded means? i thought it meant to believe in somenthing that is not true, is that not the case?
Im not attacking your argument, because well you have none (no this is not an attack i mean that literally, you were jus stating a fact).

Now for the rest of your post, i dont care if i am honest, however i did provide some evidence that what you claimed that was for "every class" was not true, MNK was an exception.

Yes player agency is important. again you are stating a fact (i mean there are more factors to take in consideration but to be fair that is not a discussion i want to have with you).

Here is an important question by player agency you mean the players ability to impact the story via game play? or the ability that a player has to shape and custom the game play mechanics? the players ability to interact with the world (within the game laws) as freely as posible?

Either way I think i stated it before this is not a dissusion i want to have, i am not qualified to have this disscusion to begin with.

[Xieldras]

I agree with this, completly, but there are caveats there, first not every idea works for every game, second is it a good thing to have in the game or is it just a gimmick, will it add somenthing or just be completely superfluous.
Because how this game is made i just dont see how cuztomization can work, since the game itself, is too rigid, any amount of "bending" one can think will probably break the game, hell this game punished NIN back in the day when it came out because it was doing more dps than expected, it punished MNKs for the TK rotation, the same with BLM with that server Tick thing (and prolly MNK is to follow suit), the devs themselves are extremely rigid.

Fair enough. Personally I believe that rigidity to be something that prevents the game from truly evolving. Sure it's good to have steady ground, but if all you're doing is sticking to that and not taking risks then you wouldn't know if something could be amazing. Of course, you have to know when an idea is not good and ditch it, preferably before it goes to production (staring at Diadem 3.0 here, please stop this Devs...). I can understand the combat itself being very rigid but I believe they should reduce said rigidity a bit and allow players choice.

I hilariously used SkS materias on my Bard back when I started out cuz I wanted to go fast while keeping the playstyle I enjoy. Meta will always exist, even if they try to balance things but in my personal opinion the most fun is trying to complete challenging content with what you have. I understand that this means going against the community flow of meta chasers but if anything the UCOB world 1st showed to me, it's that you can complete content while having fun.

Although a Talent Tree could work and be fun, they would need to look at a lot of references to properly gauge how to integrate it. This means playing the other MMOs for the feel, thus spending time to rework the roots. Unfortunately, I doubt SE will do that anytime soon, they do like sticking to their formula...

[YanderePrincess]

If people want to take optimal talents even though they don't find them fun, that's their business. This game is not tuned in a way that you would need the optimal build for 95% of content. WoW is a very different game with a far more toxic and judgmental community.

Has it occurred to you that the ability to easily gimp your job by choosing shitty talents "because they're fun" is a major part of why WoW has a more toxic and judgmental community?

[GrenGarm]

Honestly talent tree seem like a dead idea in terms of MMO design. It's a wonderful concept but ends up being one spec to rule them all. Look at WoW, every xpac the devs try and change it only to players find the best spec and make all other obsolete. Even in it's current form they have to balance 3 different spec within the same job so one isn't superior. We have 17 job and if they only added two talent spec that would require 34 specs to balance. It's a lot of work.

Now look at our materia system and what is the most prized of the bunch for dps.

I'm not arguing that jobs should be split among different specs as drastically as WoW's classes. Those specs share only a handful of spells, mostly utility stuff, but might as well be different classes.

[GrenGarm]

Has it occurred to you that the ability to easily gimp your job by choosing shitty talents "because they're fun" is a major part of why WoW has a more toxic and judgmental community?

Based on the responses in this thread, I'm no longer convinced that this game is any less toxic than WoW.

[GrenGarm]

What is a good MMo that has talents? How many good MMO with talents are there?

Blance is not the goal? really? i cant even begin to imagine what would it be like for me to do a dng where a sch cant heal because balance its not the goal.

So many strawman arguments in this thread. Sigh.

[Connor]

It’s a fun idea and I think it’d be cool to have more control over how you play. Sadly though, I don’t think the developers want players to have real ‘options’ because it can result in people being ostracised for not choosing the ‘correct option’ (not saying this is a bad thing either). Even if they were able to release traits that were extremely well balanced, there’d inevitably be one found to be ‘better’ and everyone would be expected to use it.

I actually loved the concept behind the Logogram abilities in Eureka, and it felt like I could kinda get away with setting anything (I always had Cure and Raise on Bard). I’m not suggesting that it could translate into normal content or that Eureka was in any way enjoyable lol, just that I thought it was a fun idea

[reyre]

So many strawman arguments in this thread. Sigh.

Because i am actually asking a question? i want to know if you know of any MMO with good talent trees, and if so how many of them are there, so i can go look them up and see how they do it.

So much assumption by the OP. Sigh. Stop trying to assume everything, because by default you dont know if you are right.

About the balnce thing, how can that not be a goal in this game? isnt that the goal in every game?

Also straw man argument? are you serious? You yourself said that every MMO and RPG outside of this one had a talent tree and when i ask for examples of such "every" MMO i am the one making a straw man argument ....are you serious?