Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[TankHunter678]

The problem with the idea of Talents is that the game would be designed around the optimal ones, just as in the case in every other game that uses a talent system.

Which means you bring those talents period, making the talent system itself a joke. As is the case in most other game that uses a talent system. To use your NIN example... if the pDPS boost from not using trick attack put NIN in line with the 2nd lowest melee DPS then Trick Attack would never be used ever again due to it being a rDPS deficit to use it. At which point you may as well remove trick attack and make the talent standard because trick attack becomes a noob trap. Why? Because Trick Attack would never make up the 2k DPS difference caused by NIN going from a support DPS to a selfish DPS.

[GrenGarm]

The problem with the idea of Talents is that the game would be designed around the optimal ones, just as in the case in every other game that uses a talent system.

Which means you bring those talents period, making the talent system itself a joke. As is the case in most other game that uses a talent system. To use your NIN example... if the pDPS boost from not using trick attack put NIN in line with the 2nd lowest melee DPS then Trick Attack would never be used ever again due to it being a rDPS deficit to use it. At which point you may as well remove trick attack and make the talent standard because trick attack becomes a noob trap. Why? Because Trick Attack would never make up the 2k DPS difference caused by NIN going from a support DPS to a selfish DPS.

A strawman argument. You give an example that assumes the devs would be stupid enough to design the talents that way and then reject the entire system as a result.

For NIN, all they have to do is design talents that make Trick Attack a net DPS gain over the other choices with a group of a certain size. This is basic math. I'm pretty sure the devs can manage to figure that out.

[reyre]

A strawman argument. You give an example that assumes the devs would be stupid enough to design the talents that way and then reject the entire system as a result.

For NIN, all they have to do is design talents that make Trick Attack a net DPS gain over the other choices with a group of a certain size. This is basic math. I'm pretty sure the devs can manage to figure that out.

So what if they want to do story 8 man missions they have to put that trait? that doesnt seem to be much like an option to me? or are you saying that you forgot about the story quest and trials. how about roulet?

[TankHunter678]

A strawman argument. You give an example that assumes the devs would be stupid enough to design the talents that way and then reject the entire system as a result.

For NIN, all they have to do is design talents that make Trick Attack a net DPS gain over the other choices with a group of a certain size. This is basic math. I'm pretty sure the devs can manage to figure that out.

In other words there would be no point to not run Trick Attack as it is only very rarely that you are going after open world mobs. Since trick attack would be balanced for dungeon content and above which is the vast majority of content you run in the game. Making the talent option worthless and a noob trap.

[GrenGarm]

In other words there would be no point to not run Trick Attack as it is only very rarely that you are going after open world mobs. Since trick attack would be balanced for dungeon content and above which is the vast majority of content you run in the game. Making the talent option worthless and a noob trap.

Worthless to you does not mean worthless to all.

One man's "noob trap" is another man's fun alternative.

A 5% DPS loss is not going to make or break an encounter for the vast majority of situations in this game.