Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Physic]

I personally believe that a competent tank is the one that will most likely set the pace.

I've been playing tank since 2.0 and I've been pulling even the walls and I rarely had an issue. Having all jobs to level 70, I know for certain that every job can help with the AoE. Some less than others but when said DPS read their tooltips, they will know how to execute it effectively. By no means that requires top notch optimization or savage level of performance, as AoE rotations are easier to pull than single target rotations. In my opinion "Action economy" is better in big pulls as you are using your cooldowns to damage a higher number of targets within its active window, as well as your consumable resources (TP/MP), mitigation skills and invulns (Yes, Hallowed Grounds and Living Dead ARE cooldowns, not emergency cooldowns). As some poster above mentioned, this is not an issue in level 50; 60 and 70 content. Leveling is debatable. I don't know which content they were running but I guess it's pointless based on what this debate is aimed at...

With that being said... *IF* ANY player/job gets paired up with a majority of people wanting to play in a certain way: They can either adapt, leave or get kicked. Either a competent/great players getting paired up with underperformers or the underperformer getting paired up with competent/great players. Underperformers don't have a free pass because it's DF, same with the opposite party. The run will proceed based on what the majority wants. No one is more entitled than the other.

your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.

[Mavrias]

For all they knew, the tank was new or inexperienced and was still learning. In that case, what they did amounted to blatant bullying. Not acceptable.

so, when does the excuse "new and inexperienced" fall flat? when should your party be able to criticize someone without them going "im new its not fair to expect me to try to meet any sort of expectation or standard or request"


not liking something someone did does not mean you were bullied.

[Mavrias]

your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.

and you're saying the minority is entitled to steal the time of the other players based on whatever arbitrary decision they like. if someone is unwilling to even try, they shouldn't be so offended if the group removes them.

[SerLuke]

Generally when I run a 50/60/70 dungeon as my PLD I pull based on how well the healer is geared, if we're killing really slow with big pulls for whatever reason I'll switch to pulling small. However if a healer asks that I pull small I'll respect the request and do it. For leveling dungeons I don't like the pull as big simply cause there's less of an advantage to doing so and pulling too big in a leveling dungeon can also make things really hard on the healer though mostly cause higher ilvls don't give as much advantage as they do in 50/60/70 content.

[ReiMakoto]

different dungeons have different numbers of damage in a pull everything scenario. in stone vigil, pull everything means you could go all the way to the first boss. in other dungeons pull everything means 6 monsters until you kill a specific monsters.

there is no way to say for every scenario pull everything is the right answer.


also, your aoe does matter for size of pull. if you have primarily conal aoe, and the pull is large enough, monsters will walk outside the aoe. If you are a tank this means it is likely certain monsters will peel off you and attack dps/healers. Repositioning constantly moves monsters and is not optimal is you are a tank, because moving monsters can mis align aoes, line attacks or ground targeted attacks

Also, if your group has an aoe size that basically only hits 5 mobs reliably, pulling more than 5 monsters is not that effective. Rockbreaker on monk for example is not a large aoe, getting 10 enemies is not that effective in this case and more chaotic for little benefit.

steel cyclone is 5 yalms, its not that big, if you pull the whole dungeon, you wont hit all. also when you pull large numbers the monsters constantly squirm, making it more chaotic. equilibrium is 60 seconds and not primarily for enmity.

all of this is overall irrelevant anyway because expecting optimal gameplay in random duty finders is imo foolish.

OH, I thought we were talkin about endgame dungeons here, leveling is a entirely different kettle of fish.

Also I think you just need to be better at positioning if thats the case, cos most of the time when I play War, the cone hits pretty much everything I want, and steel cyclone as hits everything if you're positioned right. Also equilibrium being means its up for basically every mob pack at some point, and its a shit tonne of free aggro and healing. Dunno if you've raided either, but equilibrium is primarily an aggro tool first, a healing tool second.

Also I've never had problems hitting things with rockbreaker on monk so I'm not sure, but "little benefit" isn't exactly right because every extra enemy you hit his a tonne more potency overall, so its worth positioning it right.

[kidalutz]

As a tank and healer myself When tanking I will always bite a small pull first to see how my PuG handles it if it's smooth and easy, I'll pull more. If it's grating and people aren't even trying to AoE or move out of stuff, or the healers overfocused on damage to the point that my health drops into danger levels with a CD Popped to the point that I gotta clemency myself twice in a row? You're darn straight they aren't going to get big pulls out of me.

I wont claim all tanks do this TBH since I heal more often than tank I rarely ever get a Tank that even tries to mitigate or move (Looking at you DRK Not all of you but most I've gotten stuck healing are culprit)

I also pop potions and do what I can to stay alive but I'll be honest theres alot of bad healers out there too all it takes is a couple of times of a healer or two trying to push out that one last damage spell while the tanks self heal is busted and CDs recharging and that's all she wrote. Newer tanks are gunshy from that point on.

Myself I dont really care one way or another I know Tanks and Healers come in good and dren varieties.

As to the kicking bit *shrug* I think that premades should stay out of roulette and go with PF instead.

[Physic]

i dont really think having to immediately requeue (especially since in this case the person requeueing likely wont have to wait even two minutes) is much of a punishment. if they got a 30 minute penalty then i may see the punishment angle. as it stands there is no price paid.

i play an mmo to have fun, not to put up with others when i dont have to. if one of us feels so strongly about something, then one of us needs to leave; if not them, then me. (e.g. if i feel a few minutes longer with slow pulls is unacceptablely unfun and theres no visible reasoning or compromise i'll try to kick. kick doesnt go through? i'll leave instead then)

if you dont want to put up with others, its up to you to create that situation in an MMO. You can, through party finder group with like minded individuals with specific specifications. The fact that you didnt use the tool made for that means its unfair of you to penalize players for not meeting those specifications.

if they only have 30 minutes to play, and they queued for a specific dungeon, they could have wasted a queue time of 10 minutes, and like 6 minutes of dungeon progress. Its a group activity aimed at normal completion with average players. I think people should set their expectations accordingly.

[OcieKo]

this literally doesnt make sense lmao. of course if im doing a dungeon as a healer i didnt come on a tank. you cant queue for multiple roles. im not gonna shut up and just take it if i feel the tank isnt playing well and it affects me.

"oh dang the tank lost hate on the boss and now its ripping the samurai's face off. but i didnt queue as tank so guess im not allowed to say anything"

"healer's standing around casting medica 2 every 20 seconds then going afk but i didnt queue as heals so im just gonna keep my mouth shut :/"

The tank one, either the tank or the better skilled DPS isn't doing their job and watching enmity, that's not the discussion here.
The healer one is annoying, not grounds for kicking.

Not changing your playstyle for people who CHOSE NOT to play that way is not the leftover's problem, it's the one's who think they dictate how things they DON'T want to do are played.
I hate big pulls as any role, but if I'm healing, I deal with it until it causes wipes, if I'm DPSing I use my AOE Rotation until 2-3 mobs are left. I don't screech for "PLAY MY WAY" simply because I don't like it.
I change my playstyle to make what's being done work. Monk doesn't want to AoE when I'm tanking, I'll reduce pull size. Healer doesn't want to DPS in large windows of no-healing (I use 6s windows personally, I accept up to about 9-12s) then I increase my pull size and use weaker CDs. Since more often not I queue roulette as a duo, I can pretty much kick every tank who mass pulls because we don't care for it by your logic, in my opinion it's wrong, so I don't. I/we chose not to tank right when we queued I sacrificed my opinion on how they play, they keep pulling without huge downtime/stalling and aggro is generally on them, I deal I chose that the instant I queued.

If my opinion is asked, yep it'll be given. If tips/tricks/hints etc. are requested I'll give it. If no one asks for a boss explanation, I assume everyone knows or wants to enjoy it the first time.

As a tank and healer myself When tanking I will always bite a small pull first to see how my PuG handles it if it's smooth and easy, I'll pull more. If it's grating and people aren't even trying to AoE or move out of stuff, or the healers overfocused on damage to the point that my health drops into danger levels with a CD Popped to the point that I gotta clemency myself twice in a row? You're darn straight they aren't going to get big pulls out of me.

I wont claim all tanks do this TBH since I heal more often than tank I rarely ever get a Tank that even tries to mitigate or move (Looking at you DRK Not all of you but most I've gotten stuck healing are culprit)

I also pop potions and do what I can to stay alive but I'll be honest theres alot of bad healers out there too all it takes is a couple of times of a healer or two trying to push out that one last damage spell while the tanks self heal is busted and CDs recharging and that's all she wrote. Newer tanks are gunshy from that point on.

Myself I dont really care one way or another I know Tanks and Healers come in good and dren varieties.

As to the kicking bit *shrug* I think that premades should stay out of roulette and go with PF instead.

I more or less agree here.

if you dont want to put up with others, its up to you to create that situation in an MMO. You can, through party finder group with like minded individuals with specific specifications. The fact that you didnt use the tool made for that means its unfair of you to penalize players for not meeting those specifications.

if they only have 30 minutes to play, and they queued for a specific dungeon, they could have wasted a queue time of 10 minutes, and like 6 minutes of dungeon progress. Its a group activity aimed at normal completion with average players. I think people should set their expectations accordingly.

Same here, pretty much agree.

[SenorPatty]

Hey,

Earlier today within discord a group of us got into an disagreement around tank entitlement vs group entitlement, which inherently holds more value. What started this conversation within our discord is that group of players within our discord removed a tank that refused to do larger pulls despite the group offering encouragement, and telling them not to worry if things go south that they have their back. The tank refused, so the three removed the tank from the group.

Reason the debate started within the discord was because certain people felt that they were in the wrong that tanks inherently set the pace of the run no one else end of story. The provided reasons that removing someone for not doing large pulls is selfish since it will overall not speed up the group. When I posed the question why does a tank deserve special treatment over any other role? If the group wants to do the large pulls the tank should at the very least try. If this go south so be they can adjust after.

It strikes me as odd since I know for a fact the same group of people that were upset about the removal of the tank refusing to try something new with larger pull despite the group in question telling them that they will be fine and they will support them through it. Have in the past removed dps for refusing to AoE, or healers that do not feel like doing damage and just stand around between downtime.

I am autistic so I tend to have a black and white view on many things, and they did point this out that I am missing the context but no one was able to show me within the context how the tank role is granted a certain level of entitlement that say a dps that refuses to aoe is granted.

So long story short, why is it that a tank role itself seems to be granted a greater degree of entitlement over say three other people in the group. Should the three cater to the desires of the tank simply because they are the tank, or were people right in saying that the tank role itself sets the pace end of the story. Overall just confused since for longest I have been told everything is a group effort enmity control, dos, but pace seems to be a different beast for some. Pace is considered a group effort in the sense that it is expected for DPS to AoE, yet if the overall group is capable of larger pulls and the tank says otherwise then in that case the tank is correct is dictating the pace, but I thought pace was a collective effort.

Agonizes for the spelling and grammatical mistakes.

The following excludes tanks who can mass pull but just won't because they're intentionally and behaviorally trolls. Yes they exist and they just want to watch the whole world burn.

Thought I should put a TL;DR here: A tank's past experiences may prevent him/her, in the form of a mental roadblock, to mass pull and the game's social rules and the way dgns were designed may make us feel like tanks have greater entitlement

There's not a real right or wrong to this. There are so many factors to consider: the duty in question, the group skill levels, the gear (things awkward when people show up in a i250+ instance with i100 gear) and so on. To answer the bolded, there is one factual aspect to the answer: they're the least played role in the game and what does that have to do with group entitlement? It's not as much about the entitlement and rather the consequences that aspect brings about. Socially - when it comes to mmorpgs - the tank role is the most criticized role. In this game where most content can be done with only one tank, when that person falls, things fall apart fast. In older games, a tank dying meant that a more robust dps, like the equivalent of a drg, could come and substitute for a bit until the tank was back up and running but in this one, unless you're doing 8man or 24man content, the greater the amount of enemies that are being pulled, the closer to a wipe you get if the tank dies. This might be one of the things at the very least that troubles people who are inexperienced at tanking in this game or just have not gained enough skills to be confident in their "mass pull game".

So going back over the greater entitlement tanks issue, with what I've said above, tanks usually have to deal with three immidate concerns, which might as well be a checklist:

-Do I know this place inside out?

-Can I trust my party members to play decently?

-Am I confident enough in myself to do it?

Although not asked out loud and they're in no particular order, I feel that this is more or less what tanks fall back to in order to determine if they're going to mass pull. If I were to take myself as an example, since I'm up to date with all the dgn content, I don't need to checklist the first question. This is turns bolsters my confidence and in regards to the 3rd question, having gone through much "trial by fire" situations in mass pulls, I'm usually very confident to initiate the mass pulls. But question #2 was, for a very long time, a big, BIG obstacle to me when I first started learning the ropes. It is not as much as my trust in my party member's skill level that I go by but rather their behavior. There is a lot of party behaviour I can say with utmost confidence would not only deter me from tanking but even if I did, I would probably relegate to the safest tanking playstyle possible: the one pack at a time pull. In my opinion, I firmly believe that question #2 makes or break tanks and unless you tank for a very long time like I did and learn to shrug off the most banal and unbelievable playstyles you'll ever encounter, there is a fair chance that up and coming tanks may just withdraw into their own playstyles, even if it doesn't agree or make sense to do so just to ensure maximum survival and clear rate.

At that point, what comes after that is what happens when you can't even meet in the middle of the road? Although an update regarding the rules of playstyle differences emerged some time ago, neither side (if they were speaking to one another civilly) is inherently right or wrong. There are no rules supporting majority or minority. All that's left is negotiations purely based on many gameplay precedences:

-Tanks have mass pulled before successfully, so it should be done

-Healers have kept mass pulling groups alive before, so it should be done

-Dps have killed mobs quickly enough to avoid the above running out of resources, so it should be done.

All the while forgetting at times that these precedences are contingent on all three roles reaching the needed skill levels to pull those off. When a tank has not reached this, or cannot meet the questions that I've asked above, then things breakdown and one side must submit: either the rest of the party goes along with it or the tank is excluded. Either way, the impact that both situation has makes the playerbase really feel like the tank has the greater sense of entitlement because the moment he/she's gone, most of the time, there's no moving forward. If the trio that's left goes on to kill each pack at time to make headway, then they ultimately ended up doing the very thing they did not want the tank to do. And if they end up at a boss, most of the time, they can't go further because the game was designed so that bosses will wipe a tankless party.

Hence, the "factual" aspect of why a tank has greater entitlement than the rest of the party.

[cicatriz313]

I mean, telling people not to boot people is kinda the same as telling people to pull more, telling someone how to play. I've heard of plenty of people booting for "playstyle differences" so, kinda just do what you think is right kinda situation.

Edit: If it is indeed the majority of a party vs just the tank, why should 3 people be inconvenienced in the pf to "find what they want" rather than the tank who obviously is in need of hand holding?