Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Mavrias]

your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.

and you're saying the minority is entitled to steal the time of the other players based on whatever arbitrary decision they like. if someone is unwilling to even try, they shouldn't be so offended if the group removes them.

[Physic]

and you're saying the minority is entitled to steal the time of the other players based on whatever arbitrary decision they like. if someone is unwilling to even try, they shouldn't be so offended if the group removes them.

there is a fair expectation which depends on the content being attempted, and what the agreement was going into that content.

dungeon duty finder only expects that you be a person in the right role, capable of completing, and actually attempting to complete the content.


what i am saying is it unfair to come into a random casual duty finder and expect optimal play on penalty of time wasted, just because there are more optimal players than not optimal players.

yeah i know, people in duty finder arent great, sometimes its annoying, but if i signed up to play with people of random skill level and experience, i accept they are likely to have random skill level and experience, and i'm not going to punish them for attempting to play the game.

[Lilseph]

your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.

I always do what it's best for the majority within reason. You can't please everyone, but at least if you do, aim to please the majority. It sucks that your time got wasted, but you had a choice and you decided to not think of the group when making that decision.

[Kaedan]

The objective bottom line is that those players can and should be reported and warned/suspended for their behavior.

"Not going fast enough" isn't grounds for kicking someone from the group. Obviously if the tank is just standing still and afking, that's grounds for kicking, but just taking it group by group is not valid grounds for kicking. That's harassment.

So those people were in the wrong. If they want to set the pace, they can play tank. A tank should only pull what they are comfortable with, regardless of "assurances" made. For all they knew, the tank was new or inexperienced and was still learning. In that case, what they did amounted to blatant bullying. Not acceptable.

[Mavrias]

For all they knew, the tank was new or inexperienced and was still learning. In that case, what they did amounted to blatant bullying. Not acceptable.

so, when does the excuse "new and inexperienced" fall flat? when should your party be able to criticize someone without them going "im new its not fair to expect me to try to meet any sort of expectation or standard or request"


not liking something someone did does not mean you were bullied.

[SerLuke]

Generally when I run a 50/60/70 dungeon as my PLD I pull based on how well the healer is geared, if we're killing really slow with big pulls for whatever reason I'll switch to pulling small. However if a healer asks that I pull small I'll respect the request and do it. For leveling dungeons I don't like the pull as big simply cause there's less of an advantage to doing so and pulling too big in a leveling dungeon can also make things really hard on the healer though mostly cause higher ilvls don't give as much advantage as they do in 50/60/70 content.

[Kaedan]

so, when does the excuse "new and inexperienced" fall flat? when should your party be able to criticize someone without them going "im new its not fair to expect me to try to meet any sort of expectation or standard or request"


not liking something someone did does not mean you were bullied.

Wow, talk about strawman from left field.

Context my friend. Stay within it. In this case, the tank was pulling single groups rather than gathering multiple groups. They are meeting the dungeon's standards of design, and thus perfectly within the bounds of reason and thus kicking them was blatant harassment.

As I said, if the tank is AFKing or going ridiculously slow for no reason, then that is a completely different story.


EDIT: Furthermore, if it's their first time tanking the dungeon or they are otherwise inexperienced, they aren't going to improve if you kick them. They're just going to get pissed off and never tank again (making dps queues that much longer).

You asked about the "line"? The line is when someone is obviously trolling/wasting time vs taking it slow (read: not unreasonably) due to lack of experience or lack of confidence.

[Mavrias]

Wow, talk about strawman from left field.

Context my friend. Stay within it. In this case, the tank was pulling single groups rather than gathering multiple groups. They are meeting the dungeon's standards of design, and thus perfectly within the bounds of reason and thus kicking them was blatant harassment.

As I said, if the tank is AFKing or going ridiculously slow for no reason, then that is a completely different story.

lmao i didnt make up "what if they were new and inexperienced" it was literally in the comment i replied to. thats not a strawman.


being kicked is not being harassed. the party thinking i dont want to play with this person (for whatever reason) and then removing them from the group is not harassment.

[Kaedan]

lmao i didnt make up "what if they were new and inexperienced" it was literally in the comment i replied to. thats not a strawman.


being kicked is not being harassed. the party thinking i dont want to play with this person (for whatever reason) and then removing them from the group is not harassment.

It very much is if they were kicked for the reason the OP laid out in OP. The tank was not being unreasonable and was playing within the design parameters of the content.

Your strawman, btw, was "it's not fair for me to meet any kind of expectation". That's hyperbole to the extreme, and not at all within the context of what's being discussed.

The situation is this: The tank was pulling 1 group at a time rather than gathering 2-3 groups. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and kicking said tank for it was quite clearly harassment. Yes, there are "lines" of what is acceptable and what isn't (which I gave examples of), but this situation is not at all one that called for kicking

[Reinha]

Pull size is one of the tank's responsibilities. It's not a democratic decision. You can ask a tank to adjust the pull size the same way you can ask a dps to AoE or a healer to do some damage when possible, but ultimately it's their choice to comply or not. If you are not happy with the tank's play style, you can kick them just like any other role. Personally I prefer the tolerant approach in dungeons.