Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[OcieKo]

Simply put, if you want to be in control of a certain aspect of randomized group content, play the job in control of that aspect or stfu. If you don't want to tank/heal/dps yourself then why do you deserve to tell someone willing to do it how they can cater to the lazy bum not willing to do it? IMHO you had 3 people unwilling to tank trying to force the one willing to play their way, yet none of them wanted to queue as tank.

If I queue as tank, I mostly chain pull, you have no downtime between pulls, bosses anything, mob is going to die without causing melee to have to chase it, I'm running to the next fight.
If I queue as a healer, only limit I care about is if I can keep the group alive, if I can't my opinion on how its done now matters, if I can't get 6s of safe time do DPS so be it, I just don't DPS.
If I queue as DPS, they pull enough mobs I AOE, they don't I single target rotation, I chose not to tank/heal even though I could.
I didn't want to play given role, since I didn't want to tank/heal/dps well why should I want them to play a way even I don't want to play atm.

I switch around because I don't like constantly being in charge of the same thing. If I'm pissed that SMNs/RDMs are being slow on the combat rezzes, whelp next DPS queue I go RDM/SMN and fix that, not kick the RDM/SMN for not watching MP leves, Swiftcast usage, how often deaths are happening, etc.

Choose your own responsibility, and deal with the ones you chose not to take.

[Physic]

I apologize for the confusion, I know I did articulate myself clearly. Yes this was a standard expert roulette with three people grouped together (healer + two dps). Thank for taking the time to explain the mindset to you, while it does seem like my view is in the minatory I do hold that no player inherently is above at the very least trying to fit within the collectives will in this case the group. While I do not recall who mentioned I do fall in lines with the mindset of majority rules in group situations. Granted, my view is slightly skewed since I do not see being removed from a party as a personal attack, more or a miss alignment of ideals. Which is fine, just means if I was removed from the group they were not the right group for me.

Though I do have more free time then the average person so maybe that is a factor. Either way I do sort of see why opinions differ greatly on such a topic, and while I do not agree with the double standard some have I can see where they are coming from since at the end of the day each player has their own goals and views of what is enjoy or efficient. In retrospect maybe if I found myself in a similar situation in the future I will recall back to this thread and not be hasty since some have brought up good points. Such as the intent behind the encouragement matters. Is it really encouragement if the group removes the player after the refuse to follow a standard of play set by the group.

Once again I apologize sometimes simple concepts have to be explained to me from different point of views since for me I see no difference in value between roles themselves yet those that I play with clearly do so I tend to get easily confused.



If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

what she is implying is that option 1 is the best option for the health of the game and community as a whole. You are less likely to have players extremely upset, or feel they are being punished. And more people will feel comfortable using the duty finder tool.

although you may not see it that way, most people view getting kicked as fairly negative, and almost always you end up wasting a lot of time.

if most players thought that being kicked was a normal expected occurence within the duty finder, they would probably not use the duty finder, or seek to mitigate the potential to be kicked via premades. If less people use the df, it will be a less effective means of completing content.

[Mavrias]

no, not really. because one group forces a punishment upon the other.

it would be different if kicking a player cloned the instance, and put both groups at the top of the queue for replacements, but that is not the case.

considering on average we are talking a difference of a few minutes more for slow pulls, its basically pretty selfish.

basically the group of 3 is gambling to get their acceptable playstyle tank, but they make the tank pay the price if they lose the gamble. They knew theyd get a replacement easily.


if they spoke to the guy, and he said he would rather leave, that would be a different story.

i dont really think having to immediately requeue (especially since in this case the person requeueing likely wont have to wait even two minutes) is much of a punishment. if they got a 30 minute penalty then i may see the punishment angle. as it stands there is no price paid.

i play an mmo to have fun, not to put up with others when i dont have to. if one of us feels so strongly about something, then one of us needs to leave; if not them, then me. (e.g. if i feel a few minutes longer with slow pulls is unacceptablely unfun and theres no visible reasoning or compromise i'll try to kick. kick doesnt go through? i'll leave instead then)

[Nyvara]

what she is implying is that option 1 is the best option for the health of the game and community as a whole. You are less likely to have players extremely upset, or feel they are being punished. And more people will feel comfortable using the duty finder tool.

although you may not see it that way, most people view getting kicked as fairly negative, and almost always you end up wasting a lot of time.

if most players thought that being kicked was a normal expected occurence within the duty finder, they would probably not use the duty finder, or seek to mitigate the potential to be kicked via premades. If less people use the df, it will be a less effective means of completing content.

Yeah thanks. Phrased it even better than I did!

The whole " Difference in play style" Is bugging me. It seems kinda like a BS excuse to kick someone. Are we saying that there is no room for a difference in style? That we all must play the same? That a tank in every group needs to be the same as the tank in the group before? Just something about that isn't tracking right with me.

[Lilseph]

I personally believe that a competent tank is the one that will most likely set the pace.

I've been playing tank since 2.0 and I've been pulling even the walls and I rarely had an issue. Having all jobs to level 70, I know for certain that every job can help with the AoE. Some less than others but when said DPS read their tooltips, they will know how to execute it effectively. By no means that requires top notch optimization or savage level of performance, as AoE rotations are easier to pull than single target rotations. In my opinion "Action economy" is better in big pulls as you are using your cooldowns to damage a higher number of targets within its active window, as well as your consumable resources (TP/MP), mitigation skills and invulns (Yes, Hallowed Grounds and Living Dead ARE cooldowns, not emergency cooldowns). As some poster above mentioned, this is not an issue in level 50; 60 and 70 content. Leveling is debatable. I don't know which content they were running but I guess it's pointless based on what this debate is aimed at...

With that being said... *IF* ANY player/job gets paired up with a majority of people wanting to play in a certain way: They can either adapt, leave or get kicked. Either a competent/great players getting paired up with underperformers or the underperformer getting paired up with competent/great players. Underperformers don't have a free pass because it's DF, same with the opposite party. The run will proceed based on what the majority wants. No one is more entitled than the other.

[Kaedan]

The objective bottom line is that those players can and should be reported and warned/suspended for their behavior.

"Not going fast enough" isn't grounds for kicking someone from the group. Obviously if the tank is just standing still and afking, that's grounds for kicking, but just taking it group by group is not valid grounds for kicking. That's harassment.

So those people were in the wrong. If they want to set the pace, they can play tank. A tank should only pull what they are comfortable with, regardless of "assurances" made. For all they knew, the tank was new or inexperienced and was still learning. In that case, what they did amounted to blatant bullying. Not acceptable.

[Reinha]

Pull size is one of the tank's responsibilities. It's not a democratic decision. You can ask a tank to adjust the pull size the same way you can ask a dps to AoE or a healer to do some damage when possible, but ultimately it's their choice to comply or not. If you are not happy with the tank's play style, you can kick them just like any other role. Personally I prefer the tolerant approach in dungeons.

[Mavrias]

Simply put, if you want to be in control of a certain aspect of randomized group content, play the job in control of that aspect or stfu. If you don't want to tank/heal/dps yourself then why do you deserve to tell someone willing to do it how they can cater to the lazy bum not willing to do it? IMHO you had 3 people unwilling to tank trying to force the one willing to play their way, yet none of them wanted to queue as tank.

If I queue as tank, I mostly chain pull, you have no downtime between pulls, bosses anything, mob is going to die without causing melee to have to chase it, I'm running to the next fight.
If I queue as a healer, only limit I care about is if I can keep the group alive, if I can't my opinion on how its done now matters, if I can't get 6s of safe time do DPS so be it, I just don't DPS.

this literally doesnt make sense lmao. of course if im doing a dungeon as a healer i didnt come on a tank. you cant queue for multiple roles. im not gonna shut up and just take it if i feel the tank isnt playing well and it affects me.

"oh dang the tank lost hate on the boss and now its ripping the samurai's face off. but i didnt queue as tank so guess im not allowed to say anything"

"healer's standing around casting medica 2 every 20 seconds then going afk but i didnt queue as heals so im just gonna keep my mouth shut :/"

[Keddera_StormMoon]

I'm not a fan of the mindless big pull - there are always going to be just certain groups where I will never big pull either because there are large mobs that are a pain to control or certain stuff just hits too hard. I'm a healer main, so I'm mindful of the stress I'm putting on my healer.

Now, if the group as a whole politely requests larger pulls, I will likely give it a try. The key word being "Politely".

[Physic]

as an example, when SB came out, me and a friend full pulled ala mhigo in just the job gear given and leveling accs, not a single issue, the damage output of these dungeons arn't that high so if both tanks and heals are using their tools properly there shouldnt be an issue. Also the "type" of aoe dps doesn't matter, all aoe is a gain at 3+ mobs, and all classes do pretty good aoe, and is an even bigger gain with more enemies. Also talking about conal hate tools, Warrior has more than just overpower to draw aggro, they have equilibrium and steel cyclone too, which combines with overpower and target swapping, you can pick up all the enemies with ease

different dungeons have different numbers of damage in a pull everything scenario. in stone vigil, pull everything means you could go all the way to the first boss. in other dungeons pull everything means 6 monsters until you kill a specific monsters.

there is no way to say for every scenario pull everything is the right answer.


also, your aoe does matter for size of pull. if you have primarily conal aoe, and the pull is large enough, monsters will walk outside the aoe. If you are a tank this means it is likely certain monsters will peel off you and attack dps/healers. Repositioning constantly moves monsters and is not optimal is you are a tank, because moving monsters can mis align aoes, line attacks or ground targeted attacks

Also, if your group has an aoe size that basically only hits 5 mobs reliably, pulling more than 5 monsters is not that effective. Rockbreaker on monk for example is not a large aoe, getting 10 enemies is not that effective in this case and more chaotic for little benefit.

steel cyclone is 5 yalms, its not that big, if you pull the whole dungeon, you wont hit all. also when you pull large numbers the monsters constantly squirm, making it more chaotic. equilibrium is 60 seconds and not primarily for enmity.

all of this is overall irrelevant anyway because expecting optimal gameplay in random duty finders is imo foolish.