Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Nyvara]

Don't make this more complicated than it actually is.

You have three options to pick from. Your answer will depend on the type of person you are.

1) The party adapts to the weaker link, whether its a tank, healer or dps.
2) The option to kick the weaker link (In OP post it was the tank) because the party refuse to adapt to him.
3) You leave the party because you refuse to adapt to the weaker link while the rest of the party don't mind it.

My personal opinion, adapting to the weaker link is the better option out of the three. It is the one with least negative consequences.

Sadly things seem to be leaning more and more more towards option 2 and we know what type of people those are. I'm also glad I roll with at least one friend in DF.

[Awha]

I apologize for the confusion, I know I did articulate myself clearly. Yes this was a standard expert roulette with three people grouped together (healer + two dps). Thank for taking the time to explain the mindset to you, while it does seem like my view is in the minatory I do hold that no player inherently is above at the very least trying to fit within the collectives will in this case the group. While I do not recall who mentioned I do fall in lines with the mindset of majority rules in group situations. Granted, my view is slightly skewed since I do not see being removed from a party as a personal attack, more or a miss alignment of ideals. Which is fine, just means if I was removed from the group they were not the right group for me.

Though I do have more free time then the average person so maybe that is a factor. Either way I do sort of see why opinions differ greatly on such a topic, and while I do not agree with the double standard some have I can see where they are coming from since at the end of the day each player has their own goals and views of what is enjoy or efficient. In retrospect maybe if I found myself in a similar situation in the future I will recall back to this thread and not be hasty since some have brought up good points. Such as the intent behind the encouragement matters. Is it really encouragement if the group removes the player after the refuse to follow a standard of play set by the group.

Once again I apologize sometimes simple concepts have to be explained to me from different point of views since for me I see no difference in value between roles themselves yet those that I play with clearly do so I tend to get easily confused.

Sadly things seem to be leaning more and more more towards option 2 and we know what type of people those are.

If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

[Nyvara]

If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

You seem like a genuinely nice person so I'll try to phrase this politely. In my experience the type of people that would kick a tank for such a reason strike me Impatient, and unforgiving. Though in your defense your group did tell the tank could pull more which in my mind changes the dynamics some. And so my comment was not so much directed to you as to those that would kick a group member with out first telling them.

[Physic]

I apologize for the confusion, I know I did articulate myself clearly. Yes this was a standard expert roulette with three people grouped together (healer + two dps). Thank for taking the time to explain the mindset to you, while it does seem like my view is in the minatory I do hold that no player inherently is above at the very least trying to fit within the collectives will in this case the group. While I do not recall who mentioned I do fall in lines with the mindset of majority rules in group situations. Granted, my view is slightly skewed since I do not see being removed from a party as a personal attack, more or a miss alignment of ideals. Which is fine, just means if I was removed from the group they were not the right group for me.

Though I do have more free time then the average person so maybe that is a factor. Either way I do sort of see why opinions differ greatly on such a topic, and while I do not agree with the double standard some have I can see where they are coming from since at the end of the day each player has their own goals and views of what is enjoy or efficient. In retrospect maybe if I found myself in a similar situation in the future I will recall back to this thread and not be hasty since some have brought up good points. Such as the intent behind the encouragement matters. Is it really encouragement if the group removes the player after the refuse to follow a standard of play set by the group.

Once again I apologize sometimes simple concepts have to be explained to me from different point of views since for me I see no difference in value between roles themselves yet those that I play with clearly do so I tend to get easily confused.



If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

what she is implying is that option 1 is the best option for the health of the game and community as a whole. You are less likely to have players extremely upset, or feel they are being punished. And more people will feel comfortable using the duty finder tool.

although you may not see it that way, most people view getting kicked as fairly negative, and almost always you end up wasting a lot of time.

if most players thought that being kicked was a normal expected occurence within the duty finder, they would probably not use the duty finder, or seek to mitigate the potential to be kicked via premades. If less people use the df, it will be a less effective means of completing content.

[Nyvara]

what she is implying is that option 1 is the best option for the health of the game and community as a whole. You are less likely to have players extremely upset, or feel they are being punished. And more people will feel comfortable using the duty finder tool.

although you may not see it that way, most people view getting kicked as fairly negative, and almost always you end up wasting a lot of time.

if most players thought that being kicked was a normal expected occurence within the duty finder, they would probably not use the duty finder, or seek to mitigate the potential to be kicked via premades. If less people use the df, it will be a less effective means of completing content.

Yeah thanks. Phrased it even better than I did!

The whole " Difference in play style" Is bugging me. It seems kinda like a BS excuse to kick someone. Are we saying that there is no room for a difference in style? That we all must play the same? That a tank in every group needs to be the same as the tank in the group before? Just something about that isn't tracking right with me.

[OcieKo]

Simply put, if you want to be in control of a certain aspect of randomized group content, play the job in control of that aspect or stfu. If you don't want to tank/heal/dps yourself then why do you deserve to tell someone willing to do it how they can cater to the lazy bum not willing to do it? IMHO you had 3 people unwilling to tank trying to force the one willing to play their way, yet none of them wanted to queue as tank.

If I queue as tank, I mostly chain pull, you have no downtime between pulls, bosses anything, mob is going to die without causing melee to have to chase it, I'm running to the next fight.
If I queue as a healer, only limit I care about is if I can keep the group alive, if I can't my opinion on how its done now matters, if I can't get 6s of safe time do DPS so be it, I just don't DPS.
If I queue as DPS, they pull enough mobs I AOE, they don't I single target rotation, I chose not to tank/heal even though I could.
I didn't want to play given role, since I didn't want to tank/heal/dps well why should I want them to play a way even I don't want to play atm.

I switch around because I don't like constantly being in charge of the same thing. If I'm pissed that SMNs/RDMs are being slow on the combat rezzes, whelp next DPS queue I go RDM/SMN and fix that, not kick the RDM/SMN for not watching MP leves, Swiftcast usage, how often deaths are happening, etc.

Choose your own responsibility, and deal with the ones you chose not to take.

[Mavrias]

Simply put, if you want to be in control of a certain aspect of randomized group content, play the job in control of that aspect or stfu. If you don't want to tank/heal/dps yourself then why do you deserve to tell someone willing to do it how they can cater to the lazy bum not willing to do it? IMHO you had 3 people unwilling to tank trying to force the one willing to play their way, yet none of them wanted to queue as tank.

If I queue as tank, I mostly chain pull, you have no downtime between pulls, bosses anything, mob is going to die without causing melee to have to chase it, I'm running to the next fight.
If I queue as a healer, only limit I care about is if I can keep the group alive, if I can't my opinion on how its done now matters, if I can't get 6s of safe time do DPS so be it, I just don't DPS.

this literally doesnt make sense lmao. of course if im doing a dungeon as a healer i didnt come on a tank. you cant queue for multiple roles. im not gonna shut up and just take it if i feel the tank isnt playing well and it affects me.

"oh dang the tank lost hate on the boss and now its ripping the samurai's face off. but i didnt queue as tank so guess im not allowed to say anything"

"healer's standing around casting medica 2 every 20 seconds then going afk but i didnt queue as heals so im just gonna keep my mouth shut :/"

[OcieKo]

this literally doesnt make sense lmao. of course if im doing a dungeon as a healer i didnt come on a tank. you cant queue for multiple roles. im not gonna shut up and just take it if i feel the tank isnt playing well and it affects me.

"oh dang the tank lost hate on the boss and now its ripping the samurai's face off. but i didnt queue as tank so guess im not allowed to say anything"

"healer's standing around casting medica 2 every 20 seconds then going afk but i didnt queue as heals so im just gonna keep my mouth shut :/"

The tank one, either the tank or the better skilled DPS isn't doing their job and watching enmity, that's not the discussion here.
The healer one is annoying, not grounds for kicking.

Not changing your playstyle for people who CHOSE NOT to play that way is not the leftover's problem, it's the one's who think they dictate how things they DON'T want to do are played.
I hate big pulls as any role, but if I'm healing, I deal with it until it causes wipes, if I'm DPSing I use my AOE Rotation until 2-3 mobs are left. I don't screech for "PLAY MY WAY" simply because I don't like it.
I change my playstyle to make what's being done work. Monk doesn't want to AoE when I'm tanking, I'll reduce pull size. Healer doesn't want to DPS in large windows of no-healing (I use 6s windows personally, I accept up to about 9-12s) then I increase my pull size and use weaker CDs. Since more often not I queue roulette as a duo, I can pretty much kick every tank who mass pulls because we don't care for it by your logic, in my opinion it's wrong, so I don't. I/we chose not to tank right when we queued I sacrificed my opinion on how they play, they keep pulling without huge downtime/stalling and aggro is generally on them, I deal I chose that the instant I queued.

If my opinion is asked, yep it'll be given. If tips/tricks/hints etc. are requested I'll give it. If no one asks for a boss explanation, I assume everyone knows or wants to enjoy it the first time.

As a tank and healer myself When tanking I will always bite a small pull first to see how my PuG handles it if it's smooth and easy, I'll pull more. If it's grating and people aren't even trying to AoE or move out of stuff, or the healers overfocused on damage to the point that my health drops into danger levels with a CD Popped to the point that I gotta clemency myself twice in a row? You're darn straight they aren't going to get big pulls out of me.

I wont claim all tanks do this TBH since I heal more often than tank I rarely ever get a Tank that even tries to mitigate or move (Looking at you DRK Not all of you but most I've gotten stuck healing are culprit)

I also pop potions and do what I can to stay alive but I'll be honest theres alot of bad healers out there too all it takes is a couple of times of a healer or two trying to push out that one last damage spell while the tanks self heal is busted and CDs recharging and that's all she wrote. Newer tanks are gunshy from that point on.

Myself I dont really care one way or another I know Tanks and Healers come in good and dren varieties.

As to the kicking bit *shrug* I think that premades should stay out of roulette and go with PF instead.

I more or less agree here.

if you dont want to put up with others, its up to you to create that situation in an MMO. You can, through party finder group with like minded individuals with specific specifications. The fact that you didnt use the tool made for that means its unfair of you to penalize players for not meeting those specifications.

if they only have 30 minutes to play, and they queued for a specific dungeon, they could have wasted a queue time of 10 minutes, and like 6 minutes of dungeon progress. Its a group activity aimed at normal completion with average players. I think people should set their expectations accordingly.

Same here, pretty much agree.

[Lilseph]

I personally believe that a competent tank is the one that will most likely set the pace.

I've been playing tank since 2.0 and I've been pulling even the walls and I rarely had an issue. Having all jobs to level 70, I know for certain that every job can help with the AoE. Some less than others but when said DPS read their tooltips, they will know how to execute it effectively. By no means that requires top notch optimization or savage level of performance, as AoE rotations are easier to pull than single target rotations. In my opinion "Action economy" is better in big pulls as you are using your cooldowns to damage a higher number of targets within its active window, as well as your consumable resources (TP/MP), mitigation skills and invulns (Yes, Hallowed Grounds and Living Dead ARE cooldowns, not emergency cooldowns). As some poster above mentioned, this is not an issue in level 50; 60 and 70 content. Leveling is debatable. I don't know which content they were running but I guess it's pointless based on what this debate is aimed at...

With that being said... *IF* ANY player/job gets paired up with a majority of people wanting to play in a certain way: They can either adapt, leave or get kicked. Either a competent/great players getting paired up with underperformers or the underperformer getting paired up with competent/great players. Underperformers don't have a free pass because it's DF, same with the opposite party. The run will proceed based on what the majority wants. No one is more entitled than the other.

[Physic]

I personally believe that a competent tank is the one that will most likely set the pace.

I've been playing tank since 2.0 and I've been pulling even the walls and I rarely had an issue. Having all jobs to level 70, I know for certain that every job can help with the AoE. Some less than others but when said DPS read their tooltips, they will know how to execute it effectively. By no means that requires top notch optimization or savage level of performance, as AoE rotations are easier to pull than single target rotations. In my opinion "Action economy" is better in big pulls as you are using your cooldowns to damage a higher number of targets within its active window, as well as your consumable resources (TP/MP), mitigation skills and invulns (Yes, Hallowed Grounds and Living Dead ARE cooldowns, not emergency cooldowns). As some poster above mentioned, this is not an issue in level 50; 60 and 70 content. Leveling is debatable. I don't know which content they were running but I guess it's pointless based on what this debate is aimed at...

With that being said... *IF* ANY player/job gets paired up with a majority of people wanting to play in a certain way: They can either adapt, leave or get kicked. Either a competent/great players getting paired up with underperformers or the underperformer getting paired up with competent/great players. Underperformers don't have a free pass because it's DF, same with the opposite party. The run will proceed based on what the majority wants. No one is more entitled than the other.

your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.