Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Physic]

It doesn't.

If there's a pack of four, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If there's a pack of nine, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If a pack of nine is split into 4 and 5, it takes more than twice as long to kill them all because I don't have cooldowns anymore on the second pull.

depends on what the other dps is, and the tank isnt just supposed to consider dps, but also surviability, cool downs, dps of the party, and what other pulls/mechanics will be involved afterwards.


also, all this optimal talk should not be the standard expectation for a random duty finder for casual content. A 4 man dungeon is not advertised to players as a time attack mode.

[Rongway]

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

This is not a critical concern at 50, and not a significant concern at 60. It's a non-issue by 70.

[Hash_Browns]

if you were joining a group with an advertised playstyle, i would say thats fair, but if you are joining a randomized group primarily in existence for all players to be able to complete basic content, i dont think its fair, or love.

They have a tool for people who want that level of control, its party finder. if the tank was using duty finder implies he did not want that level of expectation on him.

i would say its generally bad faith to use the tool that is meant to have less requirements and expectations, and then impose more requirements and expectations upon the players, enforced by kicking.


the burden for regular duty finder should be that the player seriously be attempting and capable of completing the content. Not that they perfectly match the plsystyle of the other 3, or be playing optimally imo.

Is the bar really that low for the Duty Finder?

[Mavrias]

i'm not saying its endgame tactics, but is it reasonable to penalize a player for not being optimal in a random grouping situation. And it is penalizing because the one getting kicked loses the time they spent in duty finder, and the progress in the dungeon.

think of it this way; if the tank doesnt like the party's playstyle, and the party doesnt like the tank's playstyle, wouldn't it be better to go your seperate ways sooner rather than suffer through the dungeon together not having fun?

[Yeol]

Don't make this more complicated than it actually is.

You have three options to pick from. Your answer will depend on the type of person you are.

1) The party adapts to the weaker link, whether its a tank, healer or dps.
2) The option to kick the weaker link (In OP post it was the tank) because the party refuse to adapt to him.
3) You leave the party because you refuse to adapt to the weaker link while the rest of the party don't mind it.

My personal opinion, adapting to the weaker link is the better option out of the three. It is the one with least negative consequences.

[Awha]

I apologize for the confusion, I know I did articulate myself clearly. Yes this was a standard expert roulette with three people grouped together (healer + two dps). Thank for taking the time to explain the mindset to you, while it does seem like my view is in the minatory I do hold that no player inherently is above at the very least trying to fit within the collectives will in this case the group. While I do not recall who mentioned I do fall in lines with the mindset of majority rules in group situations. Granted, my view is slightly skewed since I do not see being removed from a party as a personal attack, more or a miss alignment of ideals. Which is fine, just means if I was removed from the group they were not the right group for me.

Though I do have more free time then the average person so maybe that is a factor. Either way I do sort of see why opinions differ greatly on such a topic, and while I do not agree with the double standard some have I can see where they are coming from since at the end of the day each player has their own goals and views of what is enjoy or efficient. In retrospect maybe if I found myself in a similar situation in the future I will recall back to this thread and not be hasty since some have brought up good points. Such as the intent behind the encouragement matters. Is it really encouragement if the group removes the player after the refuse to follow a standard of play set by the group.

Once again I apologize sometimes simple concepts have to be explained to me from different point of views since for me I see no difference in value between roles themselves yet those that I play with clearly do so I tend to get easily confused.

Sadly things seem to be leaning more and more more towards option 2 and we know what type of people those are.

If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

[Nyvara]

Don't make this more complicated than it actually is.

You have three options to pick from. Your answer will depend on the type of person you are.

1) The party adapts to the weaker link, whether its a tank, healer or dps.
2) The option to kick the weaker link (In OP post it was the tank) because the party refuse to adapt to him.
3) You leave the party because you refuse to adapt to the weaker link while the rest of the party don't mind it.

My personal opinion, adapting to the weaker link is the better option out of the three. It is the one with least negative consequences.

Sadly things seem to be leaning more and more more towards option 2 and we know what type of people those are. I'm also glad I roll with at least one friend in DF.

[Physic]

think of it this way; if the tank doesnt like the party's playstyle, and the party doesnt like the tank's playstyle, wouldn't it be better to go your seperate ways sooner rather than suffer through the dungeon together not having fun?

no, not really. because one group forces a punishment upon the other.

it would be different if kicking a player cloned the instance, and put both groups at the top of the queue for replacements, but that is not the case.

considering on average we are talking a difference of a few minutes more for slow pulls, its basically pretty selfish.

basically the group of 3 is gambling to get their acceptable playstyle tank, but they make the tank pay the price if they lose the gamble. They knew theyd get a replacement easily.


if they spoke to the guy, and he said he would rather leave, that would be a different story.

[ReiMakoto]

there is no way minimum ilevel tanks all possess the ability to full pull with any healer, that is just false.

and it is not basic competence to expect a tank to full pull a dungeon if thier conal aoe hate tools cannot hit all the monsters if they do that. In fact i would call that incompetence.

Also, the capability of full pulling is not just based on the tank, but also the healer.

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

basically, at best you are oversimplifying, it is actually fairly rare that simply pulling everything is the best tactic for a tank with a minimum ilevel party.

as an example, when SB came out, me and a friend full pulled ala mhigo in just the job gear given and leveling accs, not a single issue, the damage output of these dungeons arn't that high so if both tanks and heals are using their tools properly there shouldnt be an issue. Also the "type" of aoe dps doesn't matter, all aoe is a gain at 3+ mobs, and all classes do pretty good aoe, and is an even bigger gain with more enemies. Also talking about conal hate tools, Warrior has more than just overpower to draw aggro, they have equilibrium and steel cyclone too, which combines with overpower and target swapping, you can pick up all the enemies with ease

[Nyvara]

If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

You seem like a genuinely nice person so I'll try to phrase this politely. In my experience the type of people that would kick a tank for such a reason strike me Impatient, and unforgiving. Though in your defense your group did tell the tank could pull more which in my mind changes the dynamics some. And so my comment was not so much directed to you as to those that would kick a group member with out first telling them.