Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Archwizard]

Meaning, logically, it should build Black Mana.

Why? As I said, Vercure and Verraise don't generate White Mana, so logically not every Black or White spell needs to, even when they have a potency value.

If a Black spell were to recover MP instead of generate Mana, how would that be any different than recovering HP?

[Kalise]

Why? As I said, Vercure and Verraise don't generate White Mana, so logically not every Black or White spell needs to, even when they have a potency value.

If a Black spell were to recover MP instead of generate Mana, how would that be any different than recovering HP?

so long as you are able to justify why said skill won't generate Mana or would generate both types of Mana.

As is currently, every Black spell is a damaging skill that is part of the RDM rotation and generates Black Mana.

You need to justify why a skill won't follow this pattern.

Especially with something as vague as "If a Black spell were to recover MP". What are its mechanics? Where does it fit? Is it akin to Assize? Or is it more like Syphon Strike/Riot Blade? How much Potency does it have? Will people actually ever cast the thing instead of trying to play around Lucid/Refresh? Is it oGCD?

A spell needs justification for existing and for its mechanics.

If such a spell is a GCD skill, then it will need to either be REALLY strong (Thus being used on CD irregardless of MP restore) or generate Mana in order to see much use within RDM kits (Basically, it needs to be able to not be a massive DPS loss to cast it and given how much of RDM revolves around getting off as many melee combos as possible Mana or high raw potency to offset the delay in Mana generation is required). Since if its entire point of existing is "Sometimes you die and get raised and Lucid and Refresh are on CD and then you can use this skill" that's not a particularly interesting skill.

If it's oGCD, then there's no reason it needs to be a Black spell. You could just make it a hybrid spell like Jolt/Impact/Scatter or a neutral spell like Fleche/Contre Sixte (The former makes more sense as an attack that restores MP, combining Black (Damage) and White (Support) aspects)

These are the things to think about.

If you're adding a Black Spell for support. Why? What is it about Black that makes it be the go to school (Given Black magic is traditionally focused on making thing explode)? Why wouldn't it work better as a Hybrid/White spell?

If you're just adding the skill as a Black spell because "Well, we have 2 White support spells" then aren't you also just following the thought process you were just complaining about people being stuck in?

In general, because Black spells are more explody in nature, it is assumed that Black spells in RDM's kit will be offensive casts that generate Black Mana and be part of their rotation. Anything outside of that needs some quantifying about why it exists. With Black support skills needing even more because of White's natural affinity for supportive spells (Including MP related things, see: Assize and Thin Air and to an extent, Freecure)

[Archwizard]

Especially with something as vague as "If a Black spell were to recover MP". What are its mechanics? Where does it fit? Is it akin to Assize? Or is it more like Syphon Strike/Riot Blade? How much Potency does it have? Will people actually ever cast the thing instead of trying to play around Lucid/Refresh? Is it oGCD?

Well, what I've been working with, refined by our more recent discussions:

Verfreeze (240 MP, 2 sec cast): Deals ice damage to the target and enemies nearby it with a potency of 50 to the first target and 40% less for all remaining enemies.
Additional effect: Ice damage over time
> Potency: 35
> Duration: 30 sec
> The caster can only have one instance of this effect active at a time.
Additional effect: Damage over time ticks inflict 60% damage to enemies within 5y
Additional effect: Refresh
> Potency: 20
> This effect persists while Verfreeze is active on an enemy.

If my math's right, Refresh 20 is about enough to double our base MP economy and allow us to break even with our main rotation, saving LD for emergencies.
Damage numbers are subject to change, but they're presently based on the removal of potency from movement skills (approx 195p/30s), replacing one Jolt II per cast, and the approximate damage difference between Thunder III and IV (40%). This isn't accounting for the effect the loss of a GCD of mana would have on our theoretical DPS, of course, but I would hope the MP generation and reduced cost would net neutral at least.
And of course, the TAoE portion allows us to save button space from gaining 3-4 iterations of the same DoT, with one button that's equally useful in ST (for the MP) and AoE (for the cleave damage).

I believe this fits all of your stated criteria, and works as a "BLM utility" given the connection to Umbral Ice. Would you not concur?

[Mansion]

Some "unbalance" could be implemented and keep the job's flow logical. (Mind this is still built in my support-oriented mindset)

I already talked about a single ability that could me called "Black/White Sword", turning in one or the other if your mana is disbalanced and using one source of Mana. With Black Sword being something DPS oriented (maybe a soft Vuln up on the target) and the White Sword being more passive (like a Nature's Minne, or something like this).

Then you could have another ability working the same way (proc-ing according to your higher mana) ; if your Black mana is higher, it places a DoT on the target and ticks black mana, if White is higher it could be a single target medium regen, ticking White Mana.

That way you could arrange a ticking up of one mana and using the matching "Sword" ability before it gets too high (or keep using the other mana spells).
But in the end, it is still about managing your mana balance.

[Kalise]

I believe this fits all of your stated criteria, and works as a "BLM utility" given the connection to Umbral Ice. Would you not concur?

I'm against passive MP regen that you just put up on CD. That you just keep up 100% of the time irregardless of its MP regen effect.

Since, unlike those 3 main jobs that have MP regen mechanics as part of their normal rotation (PLD, DRK, BLM) RDM doesn't have the same level of MP expenditure and as a result, focus on leveraging MP gain/usage.

This kind of suggestion is akin to suggesting "RDM's rotation skills should cost no MP" which is a step backwards in my opinion. I think active MP management should be more of a thing in the game, especially heading into ShB where TP is being removed (So maybe physical classes might also need resource management with no more infinite TP)

Now, because of RDM's focus on Mana management, I don't necessarily require something like with PLD/DRK/BLM where they have to focus around the MP generator, but something a little more thought provoking than "You get infinite MP (Outside having to Raise a bunch... But then you get Lucid to aid with that)"

[Shurrikhan]

Snip

Don't we have enough maintenance buffs? If Mana is to be such an issue, shouldn't we simply reduce RDM's MP costs, apart from Verraise, in the first place? And if we want to abuse our utility even further, then, frankly, the compensating MP restoration should be more alike to a GCD-spam.

[Archwizard]

I'm against passive MP regen that you just put up on CD. That you just keep up 100% of the time irregardless of its MP regen effect.

This kind of suggestion is akin to suggesting "RDM's rotation skills should cost no MP" which is a step backwards in my opinion. I think active MP management should be more of a thing in the game, especially heading into ShB where TP is being removed (So maybe physical classes might also need resource management with no more infinite TP)

Now, because of RDM's focus on Mana management, I don't necessarily require something like with PLD/DRK/BLM where they have to focus around the MP generator, but something a little more thought provoking than "You get infinite MP (Outside having to Raise a bunch... But then you get Lucid to aid with that)"

Yet you were advocating for a passive Mana generator in the one area of our damage we explicitly don't want another passive.

To say it's akin to saying "our rotation should be free" or "we should have infinite MP" is a stretch; you could use exactly the same logic to justify not giving any kind of MP recovery to anyone if they could potentially net-neutral.
I'm simply arguing that under current circumstances, in most high-end content we're basically living CD to CD with Lucid. In fact, exactly because TP is going away in ShB is why we RDMs in particular should raise our concerns with this, because if our melee combo isn't going to cost us TP anymore, just what do you think it'll cost?

Giving us a constant, weak Refresh mechanic that we would have to maintain is little different from giving us a rotational ability we build up to or a CD we'll smack on cooldown that gives us a large % of MP all at once, except that we would still have to wait at least ten seconds to regenerate the MP necessary to cast Verraise, rather than casting it immediately. And funnily enough, exactly those kinds of abilities already exist among other casters -- even BLM has one they never use!

Don't we have enough maintenance buffs? If Mana is to be such an issue, shouldn't we simply reduce RDM's MP costs, apart from Verraise, in the first place? And if we want to abuse our utility even further, then, frankly, the compensating MP restoration should be more alike to a GCD-spam.

What "maintenance buffs" do we have as RDMs? Access only to Lucid Dreaming is precisely the point being argued, and we don't juggle buffs or debuffs like other casters or even most other DPS; aside from Embolden, our entire rotation centers around instantaneous and single-use effects.

Meanwhile, we already have some of the lowest MP costs in the game, Vercure and Verraise aside, and yet here we are because we can't recover near what we spend. Besides, how would reducing the costs across the board to be closer to our base regen be any better than just raising our regen (and maybe the cost of Verraise)?

[Kalise]

Yet you were advocating for a passive Mana generator in the one area of our damage we explicitly don't want another passive.

Because RDM combat is focused on building and expending Mana. Thus, having passive Mana generation aids with the generation, while the fact that it all gets dumped in one go over 3 actions ensures that the expenditure aspect is always satisfied.

To say it's akin to saying "our rotation should be free" or "we should have infinite MP" is a stretch; you could use exactly the same logic to justify not giving any kind of MP recovery to anyone if they could potentially net-neutral.

Not really.

Bards try and time their Refresh for when its most beneficial and has to deal with it also being an Enmity cut skill.

WHM's have to use Thin Air when they're about to spam a bunch of spells.

AST has to actively decide to fish for a Ewer and use it over a better card.

PLD has to make sure to build up MP for its Requiescat phases while it wants to use Holy Spirit a lot when possible at the same time.

DRK has to manage how it utilizes its MP because it has far higher potential expenditure than it has gain as well as having the flexibility to pool MP for burst phases.

BLM has to actively go into UI phase in order to regen MP and it would rather sit in AF 24/7 if it could do so with no MP issues.

I'm simply arguing that under current circumstances, in most high-end content we're basically living CD to CD with Lucid. In fact, exactly because TP is going away in ShB is why we RDMs in particular should raise our concerns with this, because if our melee combo isn't going to cost us TP anymore, just what do you think it'll cost?

I'm not against an MP recovery tool for RDM. In fact, I welcome one.

I'm against an MP recovery tool that's as passive as this, where it's rolled into a universal DoT that you always want to keep active at all times and then you get no mana concerns at all outside of Raises.

Since, that to me, is as poorly designed as SMN with their spamming of Aetherflow on CD which they do anyway because that's how they do their damage with Fester/Trance/Bahamut.

Resources should be actively managed (This can also be about actively gearing for Piety breakpoints for healers too). With thought into how to maintain sufficient levels of them, it doesn't necessarily have to be as complicated as DRK, especially if resource management isn't the core focus of the job. But something more than just emulating the infinite TP of physical jobs is what I would like to see.

Especially since, I also wish to see physical jobs also have to manage resources come ShB. Like, we have things like Goad, Invigorate, Equilibrium (In Deliverance) and Tactician and they're all irrelevant because TP is infinite outside of AoE spam.

[Jonnycbad]

Stick MP regeneration on Enhanced Spellblade weaponskills with a trait. Makes your combo restore 15% of your MP (5% each hit). Should be fine and becomes part of your rotation anyway. That, or let RDM r ake advantage of that vampirism thing in their job quests and let them get a skill like Bloodbath that lets their spells refund MP back equal to 2% of their damage.

[Archwizard]

Bards try and time their Refresh for when its most beneficial and has to deal with it also being an Enmity cut skill.

WHM's have to use Thin Air when they're about to spam a bunch of spells.

AST has to actively decide to fish for a Ewer and use it over a better card.

PLD has to make sure to build up MP for its Requiescat phases while it wants to use Holy Spirit a lot when possible at the same time.

DRK has to manage how it utilizes its MP because it has far higher potential expenditure than it has gain as well as having the flexibility to pool MP for burst phases.

BLM has to actively go into UI phase in order to regen MP and it would rather sit in AF 24/7 if it could do so with no MP issues.

Resources should be actively managed (This can also be about actively gearing for Piety breakpoints for healers too). With thought into how to maintain sufficient levels of them, it doesn't necessarily have to be as complicated as DRK, especially if resource management isn't the core focus of the job. But something more than just emulating the infinite TP of physical jobs is what I would like to see.

The only reason your point falls flat is because you're comparing active MP gain tools on RDM to every class whose playstyle is based on active MP management in the first place. I'm not saying "RDM's playstyle should be based on pooling and expending MP as rapidly as possible" -- if anything we're the one Magic DPS that goes against that grain by completely ignoring the concept of MP recovery, albeit to our detriment -- I'm saying that in spite of being ostensibly efficient, we're leaky with resources and need some holes plugged. If the core of our playstyle is based around building and dumping Black and White Mana, then forcing us to actively manage our MP on top of that is somewhat of a distraction.

Besides, only so much can be said about "emulating the infinite TP of physical jobs" when we're having this discussion right before the removal of TP. If Square's concern with TP was that it was too passive, then for all we know every DoW will end up having to actively manage their MP as badly as any caster now.

Stick MP regeneration on Enhanced Spellblade weaponskills with a trait. Makes your combo restore 15% of your MP (5% each hit). Should be fine and becomes part of your rotation anyway. That, or let RDM r ake advantage of that vampirism thing in their job quests and let them get a skill like Bloodbath that lets their spells refund MP back equal to 2% of their damage.

Literally how is this any less passive than what I suggested? As stated, it'd be "part of your rotation anyway".