Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Mansion]

I know it's ShB wishlist, but would anyone be against RDM getting a finisher at level 60 as opposed to getting two nearly identical ones close together? (Verflare and Verholy only have differing mana gains and procs) Can reduce the potencies or trait something if necessary, but could be a nice little quality of life to the job perhaps.

I don't know, because you end up doing far less capped level content that max level content. Job rotation seems to be planned in that mindset, and rethinking "in between" rotations would be weird.
Potencies of RDM are already kinda high at level 50 and 60, even without a finisher so I guess it's fine. Disbalancing one of the finishers to make it available sooner would break the flow of RDM in my opinion.

[Kurando]

snip

I get what you are saying, but also at level 70 what truly decides whether a player uses Verflare or Verholy, who doesn't pick one over the other just for the special effects as opposed to the benefits. I suppose my thinking behind splitting up the finishers was that the job would be more in line with a number of other jobs that have one finisher at the end of their rotation, rather than an actual choice you know.

[Kalise]

I suppose my thinking behind splitting up the finishers was that the job would be more in line with a number of other jobs that have one finisher at the end of their rotation, rather than an actual choice you know.

Though, the thing is, Red Mage is specifically unlike other jobs, in the fact it has 2 lots of each of its skills. Due to the unique job gauge which is all about generating 2 different types of mana. Whereby gameplay is selecting which of 2 skills is best utilized at any given time based around the levels of both mana, as you want to keep both gauges within a limit of each other so as to be able to do your melee burst (Which drains both mana types equally)

If anything, a third finisher makes more sense than a single one, one that grants a bonus if you combo at equal mana levels (As opposed to currently where you're rewarded from having an imbalance in mana so as to get a guarantee proc from Verflare/Verholy)

Since, RDM's schtick is about choice of similar spells due to one of them giving a slight bonus based on the mana it generates (Or bonus it gets from certain mana levels)

[Kurando]

snip

Though what I'm saying is how many casual players are too bothered about which finisher they use when not much seperates them. Yes you can use them to balance mana but if a player let's say opts to use nothing but Verflare each time (for guaranteed proc or not) they still have the means to build up the other mana that is low, there is no requirement for a player to alternate between the finishers. RDM doesn't have any timers to use the mana so it can be gained however the player prefers, spell balancing still needs to happen outside of finishers anyway so nothing changes in that respect

[Archwizard]

I know it's ShB wishlist, but would anyone be against RDM getting a finisher at level 60 as opposed to getting two nearly identical ones close together? (Verflare and Verholy only have differing mana gains and procs) Can reduce the potencies or trait something if necessary, but could be a nice little quality of life to the job perhaps.

I can see your reasoning, and perhaps we could see something like a placeholder finisher offered early on with a later trait to upgrade it into Verflare or Verholy at their appropriate levels (or even offer both finishers at the same level and push Manafication and every ability after it back 2 levels to fit the placeholder finisher in at 60)...

But at the same time I don't think it's terribly necessary? Each finisher is just another add-on to an otherwise full melee combo, so even for the purposes of quality-of-life, it's hard to say we're really "missing" anything from it early on, just expanding it. It's like how some people were asking earlier in the thread for another finisher for us to use after both Verflare and Verholy have both been used -- adding on to what is, as we look at it now, a complete combo. All we're missing before the collection of the next finisher is potency, and if Mansion is correct, then we're at no particular loss for it early on. Manafication itself likely adds more to the rotation at the point it's introduced than the finisher.

If anything, a third finisher makes more sense than a single one, one that grants a bonus if you combo at equal mana levels (As opposed to currently where you're rewarded from having an imbalance in mana so as to get a guarantee proc from Verflare/Verholy)

... which as I was telling Seraphor before, would still be somewhat redundant. For starters, if we're discussing the two finishers we already have as "a choice", then giving us a third, equally potent option simply serves to create clutter -- and if they're not equally potent, will simply obsolete one or the others.

[Jonnycbad]

I would love for them to turn the RDM job gauge into a sword, and the black/white mana gauge are the fuller in the center of the blade. Above the blade is the crystal that turns either red/black/white to indicate balance. The leftside of the crossguard has a white gem and the right side of the crossguard has a black gem. After using Verflare, the black gem glows, and vice versa for Verholy. When both gems activate, the pommel glows red, and activates the use of the spell Ardor, which is an AoE 500 potency spell (Deathflare/Foul equivalent). Ardor restores 10% of RDM's MP, too.

Ardor's animation could be something like the RDM stabs their blade into the ground and releases all the accumulated ambient aether in a blue fiery explosion that releases both black/white magic energy.

[Archwizard]

I would love for them to turn the RDM job gauge into a sword, and the black/white mana gauge are the fuller in the center of the blade. Above the blade is the crystal that turns either red/black/white to indicate balance. The leftside of the crossguard has a white gem and the right side of the crossguard has a black gem. After using Verflare, the black gem glows, and vice versa for Verholy. When both gems activate, the pommel glows red, and activates the use of the spell Ardor, which is an AoE 500 potency spell (Deathflare/Foul equivalent). Ardor restores 10% of RDM's MP, too.

Ardor's animation could be something like the RDM stabs their blade into the ground and releases all the accumulated ambient aether in a blue fiery explosion that releases both black/white magic energy.

So... while I'm liking the idea of the visual change for the mana gauge, I strongly disagree with everything else about this.

• Ardor being a 500 potency AoE would not only be weaker than both Verflare and Verholy, but making it an AoE that can only be accessed via a single-target rotation means it can't be used in actual AoE contexts. This is unlike Foul, which (in addition to actually being substantially stronger) can be generated in either AoE or single-target with substantial uses in both.
• Making a "capstone" skill that's dependent on using both Verflare and Verholy means a ~80 second buildup (barring downtime) only slightly favorable to SMN's.
• In addition to the previous point, having such a skill be the core of our MP regeneration would mean a massive MP investment to get MP back, particularly in scenarios where we would need large amounts of MP restored such as immediately after death. Restoring only 10% for such a lengthy time-investment would still force us to be reliant on LD to maintain our rotation upkeep.
• Perhaps a nitpick, but... as RDMs we use swords with D-Guards or Basket-hilts, very few of which have Crossguards.

[Archwizard]

At the risk of creating something arguably overpowered, I had some... thoughts about RDM, in response to both recent feedback I've been seeing and giving personally.

In addition to merging the buttons for Jolt/Impact, the Melee combo, the Verproc/Verfinishers, and removing the damage from Corps-a-Corps and Displacement:

Trait - Syphon:
Ripose, Zwerchau and Redoublement restore MP based on damage dealt.
Moulinet also reduces the remaining cooldown of Contre Sixte by 1.5 sec for each target struck; this effect is doubled if Enchanted.

Spell - Verscathe: (Instant)
Deals unaspected damage to the target with a potency of 120, and has a 50% chance to grant Dualcast.

Spell - Ardor: (2 sec cast)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 50 to the target and all nearby enemies. All affected targets receive the Overheat status for 30 seconds, dealing unaspected damage over time with a potency of 30.
Your attacks against a target you have afflicted with Overheat have a 20% chance to grant Aether Saturation, upgrading Verthunder to Verfreeze and Veraero to Verflood, respectively.

Verfreeze: (5 sec cast) Deals ice damage to the target and nearby enemies, with a potency of 340 to the first target, 40% less to the second, and 60% less to all other targets.
Increases Black Mana by 11, and an additional 2 Black Mana for each target struck. Consumes Aether Saturation on cast. Does not grant Verfire Ready.

Verflood: (5 sec cast) Deals water damage to the target and nearby enemies, with a potency of 340 to the first target, 40% less to the second, and 60% less to all other targets.
Increases White Mana by 11, and an additional 2 White Mana for each target struck. Consumes Aether Saturation on cast. Does not grant Verstone Ready.

Ability - En Garde: (2 min CD)
Raise a barrier of swords, reducing incoming damage by 30% for up to 20 sec. While active, receiving damage has a chance relative to the amount of damage taken to reset the cooldown on Fleche. En Garde ends upon casting Fleche.

Trait - Equilibrium:
Performing any uninterrupted sequence of Verfire, Verthunder and Verfreeze in succession grants Verholy Ready.
Performing any uninterrupted sequence of Verstone, Veraero and Verflood in succession grants Verflare Ready.

All numbers are samples and all names subject to change. May particularly have to tweak Verflood/Verfreeze's mana gains since they don't proc Verstone/Verfire and only grant 2 more Mana than their downgrades in single-target.
(Of course if I cranked it up any higher I might worry about mana imbalance. Perhaps if each granted just a little of the other's mana too, it might be ok?)

Results:

• Making MP gain dependent on melee damage encourages using Enchanted melee to sustain the rotation, but also allows the use of unenchanted combos as a reliable (if minor) kickstart if we're full-out of MP.
• Verscathe acts as a BLM utility for casting on the go, counterpart to Vercure's purpose of granting us Dualcast without a target.
• Yes, I know, I added a DoT, but it wouldn't particularly be different if I just made Ardor a debuff without damage, aside from losing a place to put the damage from CaC and Disp back in. And as an AoE DoT like Aero III or Miasma II, we both resolve any issues of multidotting and allow it to proc Verflood/Verfreeze more reliably off of Scatter in multi-target scenarios.
• The CD reduction to Contre Sixte in addition to 3 spells used in both single- and multi-target means our AoE goes from 2 buttons and a semi-lengthy CD for a slow rotation, to 6 buttons and a rotation that picks up speed relative to crowd size.
• Why don't Verfreeze and Verflood proc Verfire and Verstone? Partly because proccing those would interfere with the AoE rotation; partly because the pairing would grant more mana than either Verfinisher; and mostly just to make the rotation more complex.
• En Garde presents a unique survivability skill befitting the job.
• With the addition of a means to cast Verholy/Verflare outside the Melee combo, we set the groundwork for more finishers to be added to the rotation later on. Bearing in mind that as the conditions of Equilibrium require 2 Longcasts (one of which grants no proc) and 1 Shortcast, realistically deploying it would require either good luck lining up procs, Swiftcast, or just plain giving up on a speedy melee combo -- and of course, the spontaneous gain of 21 mana helps to correct any mana imbalance from casting three spells of the same type in a row. All of this while still having to stay within a 30 Mana balance to avoid losing damage should create a subtly more complex rotation than just adding a new Verfinisher.

[Archwizard]

Spell - Ardor: (2 sec cast)
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 50 to the target and all nearby enemies. All affected targets receive the Overheat status for 30 seconds, dealing unaspected damage over time with a potency of 30.
Your attacks against a target you have afflicted with Overheat have a 20% chance to grant Aether Saturation, upgrading Verthunder to Verfreeze and Veraero to Verflood, respectively.

Verfreeze: (5 sec cast) Deals ice damage to the target and nearby enemies, with a potency of 340 to the first target, 40% less to the second, and 60% less to all other targets.
Increases Black Mana by 11, and an additional 2 Black Mana for each target struck. Consumes Aether Saturation on cast. Does not grant Verfire Ready.

Verflood: (5 sec cast) Deals water damage to the target and nearby enemies, with a potency of 340 to the first target, 40% less to the second, and 60% less to all other targets.
Increases White Mana by 11, and an additional 2 White Mana for each target struck. Consumes Aether Saturation on cast. Does not grant Verstone Ready.

Upon further consideration, I suppose an alternative could simply be to skip having to debuff targets to allow the casting of Verfreeze/Verflood, and instead make it a proc chance for, say, Impact and each target hit by Enhanced Scatter (since the latter gets cast less often). With the suggested interaction from Equilibrium, it would still make Verfreeze/Verflood impactful on the rotation rather than just being a straight upgrade to Verthunder/Veraero like Impact is to Jolt.
Main issue being if you get two Enhanced Scatters in a row, you lose the Aether Saturation proc.
Alternately, make it a trait on Dualcast instead, "your instant spells have a chance to proc Aether Saturation for each target hit." Loads of possibilities.

Figured I'd mention it in the interests of reiterating that I don't really care if we do get a DoT one way or the other, I'm just not going to pass up an opportunity to shake up the rotation, and see benefits in having more outputs for Spell Speed.

... Especially when you could do fun things like:

Verfreeze: Increases Black Mana by 11, and causes your active Overheat effects on targets struck to grant 1 Black Mana per tick for the remainder of the duration; this effect does not stack with Verflood. Deals 10% more damage to enemies marked by Verflood.

Verflood: Increases White Mana by 11, and causes your active Overheat effects on targets struck to grant 1 White Mana per tick for the remainder of the duration; this effect does not stack with Verfreeze. Deals 10% more damage to enemies marked by Verfreeze.

[Seraphor]

Upon further consideration, I suppose an alternative could simply be to skip having to debuff targets to allow the casting of Verfreeze/Verflood, and instead make it a proc chance for, say, Impact and each target hit by Enhanced Scatter (since the latter gets cast less often). With the suggested interaction from Equilibrium, it would still make Verfreeze/Verflood impactful on the rotation rather than just being a straight upgrade to Verthunder/Veraero like Impact is to Jolt.
Main issue being if you get two Enhanced Scatters in a row, you lose the Aether Saturation proc.
Alternately, make it a trait on Dualcast instead, "your instant spells have a chance to proc Aether Saturation for each target hit." Loads of possibilities.

Figured I'd mention it in the interests of reiterating that I don't really care if we do get a DoT one way or the other, I'm just not going to pass up an opportunity to shake up the rotation, and see benefits in having more outputs for Spell Speed.

... Especially when you could do fun things like:

Verfreeze: Increases Black Mana by 11, and causes your active Overheat effects on targets struck to grant 1 Black Mana per tick for the remainder of the duration; this effect does not stack with Verflood. Deals 10% more damage to enemies marked by Verflood.

Verflood: Increases White Mana by 11, and causes your active Overheat effects on targets struck to grant 1 White Mana per tick for the remainder of the duration; this effect does not stack with Verfreeze. Deals 10% more damage to enemies marked by Verfreeze.

As AoE skills, I can only see it making sense to have Scatter or Enhanced Scatter proc this 'Aether Saturation'