Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Kalise]

Not necessarily. You're thinking in the binary sense of comparison to a healer.

In past FFs, where Red Mages shined was in the areas they could do things other classes couldn't, becoming a subcategory of their own.

Consider this, for instance:

Vercure now heals all allies within 5y of the target. For every ally that receives healing (not overhealing), the potency of your next spell increases by 10%, stacking up to 5 times. Can consume Acceleration to automatically generate 5 stacks.

But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

[Archwizard]

But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

[Kalise]

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

But the fact remains that in an MMO with Holy Trinity balancing, a DPS will never want, nor need, to use a Healing skill for healing.

Since, again, unless content is designed around RDM being present, healers will be able to handle any and all situations presented to them as they will be balanced to do so.

Cutting into the DPS of a DPS class will always have more impact than cutting into the DPS of a Healing class, because the DPS class will inherently have higher DPS.

Not to mention the current fact where Healers have plenty of oGCD's that they can use as well as the number of shields that are relied upon (Which cannot overheal).

The general balancing of Holy Trinity system just makes it so that anyone who has a healing skill that isn't a healer, simply will not care to use said healing skill for actual healing. This is why RDM currently doesn't really care about Vercure and why PLD doesn't really care about Clemency.

It's a situation where Healers ALREADY have healing in such abundance, that they try to minimize GCD's spent on healing skills so they can push out a bit more of their meagre DPS. Then any time additional healing may be needed, well, that's when people use Tank LB to drastically reduce incoming damage and make healing easier.

As such, it will always come down to a DPS only ever wanting to use a healing skill for utility. Even then, people will just calculate what offers more DPS, the utility provided by the skill or another DPS skill. Since that will be the primary concern of ever DPS class and in lieu of Hybrid role balancing will be the primary concern for RDM.

Of course, there's always the option of making oGCD heals so that they don't compete with DPS GCD's, but then you create a situation where RDM can replace actual Healers due to having the higher DPS even if the other actual Healer has to spend a few more GCD's on healing to make up for a RDM's lower output than a 2nd Healer (Given that DPS deal approximately 2x the DPS than Healers)

[Mansion]

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

I think you need to understand that the only hybrid nature in FFXIV's red mage is the use of White and Black magic BUT it's still DPS. As Kalise said, the Trinity will never allow cross-role abilities to a significant level. Like Ninja has agro manipulation tools, yet it's not a tanking job nor will ever be.

If as you said you save resource for a healer to DPS, their DPS is still lower than what you sacrificed with a VerCure / VerMedica or else. Even if it would bring some DPS up for RDM in a way (generating Mana, or any buff), then you need to rework the whole 3 (potentially 4) healer balance: I don't see it happening for obvious practical reasons.

So let's keep VerCure for emergency/self-sustain, and let's focus on polishing RDM's DPS, utility and identity.

[Seraphor]

RDMs heal is a self sustain, like Second Wind, and that's all it needs to be.

But it could be useful if it contributed to DPS given it's a GCD with a cast time.

So perhaps it shoukd generate white mana.
Then if we balance that with a new black magic utility spell that generates black mana...

[Seraphor]

Like I said yesterday...

RDMs heal is a self sustain, like Second Wind, and that's all it needs to be.

But it could be useful if it contributed to DPS given it's a GCD with a cast time.

So perhaps it should generate white mana.
Then if we balance that with a new black magic utility spell that generates black mana...

Vercure additional trait: If you recover HP with Vercure (i.e. the target isn't already at full HP) then you generate 5 white mana.
Plus 'Verward': Receive 20% less damage from the next hit you receive, if that damage is magic damage, you gain 5 black mana.

Throw in a 'Verfreeze': Deals 350 potency damage to all enemies in range and inflicts bind. Upon using Verfreeze, you gain 8 mana towards whichever is the lowest.
Along with an Enchanted Moulinet trait: 30% chance of proc'ing Verfreeze.

And I think that's all RDM needs. Plus, it now has an even number of black and white inspired Ver spells.

[Mansion]

Vercure additional trait: If you recover HP with Vercure (i.e. the target isn't already at full HP) then you generate 5 white mana.
Plus 'Verward': Receive 20% less damage from the next hit you receive, if that damage is magic damage, you gain 5 black mana.

Still not nearly interesting enough to use it over VerStone or VerFire, or even Impact. 5 mana is too low for a DPS GCD loss.
Wasn't it you suggesting a Regen that would tick White mana? This could work if it was an offGCD ability.

[Seraphor]

Still not nearly interesting enough to use it over VerStone or VerFire, or even Impact. 5 mana is too low for a DPS GCD loss.

The mana gain isn't meant to replace your core DPS rotation, it's compensation for having to break it. It would still be an emergency skill, you're not playing healer.

[Mansion]

The mana gain isn't meant to replace your core DPS rotation, it's compensation for having to break it. It would still be an emergency skill, you're not playing healer.

Yeah but I really don't see the point. In an Ext or Savage fight, I have don't think I have ever used VerCure outside of dual cast proc during a phase transition.
Because VerCure is now around 10 to 12K heal, it makes no difference whatsoever. In theory, it could save a tank from a coming auto-attack if their health pool is too low for whatever reason. Yet, as a DPS I can't say I watch over tanks' health. And if I did happen to see the critical situation, I still need a bit of time for reaction and casting, where I guess a healer would have done something by then. Or the tank died

[Leidiriv]

Well, there's a couple ideas I can see on BLM's end that could be shifted to RDM as part of their hybrid nature.

Verum Oratio (Enochian): Grants the RDM a SpS buff that stacks up to 5 times as they cycle through Verfinishers, probably capping out at 10% or so. (Gain 1 stack each time you use a Verfinisher, 45s duration)

Aetheric Reversal (Transpose): Swaps your White and Black mana totals, on something like a 60s cooldown.

Either or both of these might be terrible ideas, but they're the best I could come up with for how to incorporate more Black Magicks into RDM. Thoughts?