Please make Blue Mage a normal job

[Anesteria]

most of your implications are not implied at all by the quotes i linked, they may or may not be true, butnothing in the quotes suggest them.

You are missing the point once again and demonstrating that you don't have an actual understanding of the situation.
The ABC was not a list of consequent events, they were mutually exclusive scenarios that are happening right now that would make what we're saying either correct or incorrect. Reached not because this is what they directly told us but because upon further investigation this is what's going on behind the scenes after looking at ALL they've said, history and parallel situations, not just 1 interview.
Ion from Blizzard is in Yoshida's exact same position and talks similarly, except he's slightly better at veering off and damage control, but in the end offers the same poor excuses debunked in a few moments by people who actually care to look into the issue further without stopping at mere face value.

Also I asked you to answer the question I posed, to answer in sincerity, and that wasn't the question I asked. So you're either being disingenuous or what can I take from this?
It was set up in such manner because it is pertinent to what Yoshi-P and you talked about, and what you talked about was based on shaky foundations that crumble the second you actually put that very logic up for scrutiny.
Much like any argument coming from the side of balance.

Realise that people who didn't care are a 0. They wouldn't have cared whether it was a Blue Mage or a Dancer, they wouldn't have cared whether it was another dungeon or what have you.
The ones that are going to be a +1 or -1 are going to be the people who actually do care. The people who would take a problem with X thing being done badly or wishing for Y to make an appearance.
And thus far, it looks like it's more of a - than a +.

[Physic]

You are missing the point once again and demonstrating that you don't have an actual understanding of the situation.
The ABC was not a list of consequent events, they were mutually exclusive scenarios that are happening right now that would make what we're saying either correct or incorrect. Reached not because this is what they directly told us but because upon further investigation this is what's going on behind the scenes after looking at ALL they've said, history and parallel situations, not just 1 interview.
Ion from Blizzard is in Yoshida's exact same position and talks similarly, except he's slightly better at veering off and damage control, but in the end offers the same poor excuses debunked in a few moments by people who actually care to look into the issue further without stopping at mere face value.

Also I asked you to answer the question I posed, to answer in sincerity, and that wasn't the question I asked. So you're either being disingenuous or what can I take from this?
It was set up in such manner because it is pertinent to what Yoshi-P and you talked about, and what you talked about was based on shaky foundations that crumble the second you actually put that very logic up for scrutiny.
Much like any argument coming from the side of balance.

Realise that people who didn't care are a 0. They wouldn't have cared whether it was a Blue Mage or a Dancer, they wouldn't have cared whether it was another dungeon or what have you.
The ones that are going to be a +1 or -1 are going to be the people who actually do care. The people who would take a problem with X thing being done badly or wishing for Y to make an appearance.
And thus far, it looks like it's more of a - than a +.

my answer to the question was direct, some people would have liked it, and some wouldnt.

As for your concept that yoshida accidently made a class he expected to solo everything into a class that doesnt solo everything. That is not a logical premise. Development of a new class takes months, if not a year. There is no way they didnt know for a long time what the design of blu mage would be. Which makes it more likely, yoshida concept of a solo job, and your concept is different.

Yoshida most likely looked at its ability to solo to 50, solo the majority of skills, and the fact that carnivale, its biggest challenge was solo, and said this is a relatively solo job. Which is fair perspective to have. I get that some people thought it meant you would never have to play with another player, but that clearly wasnt the intent, or they could have thrown solo versions of trials in the carnivale.


point is, it is highly unlikely blue was ever meant to be a comepletely solo job. Its likely they considered it a relatively solo job, compared to other jobs. And they have specific solo content built for that job.

[Anesteria]

Physic you still didn't answer the question. Are you having trouble reading?

Taking into account that people who liked BLU have been asking for this job to be made available for a long time in FFXIV.
Would, the people who actually cared about BLU, have been upset at this job NOT being made into a "limited job" because anything else would not have respected the purported "enjoyment" they could get from the job?

I already offered the answer because there is one element that is taken for granted by Yoshida, and you as well apparently, that by pure logic cannot be held up and stands at the core of what we're talking about. Which means if that element collapses, so does the rest of the structure. There exists a correct answer and it's not the one you have given, since your response is not answering the question at hand.

If you care to pay attention, I didn't say it was an accident, far from it and yet you still think that was the case. It's the way it's been MARKETED. I told you already, if one wanted to give a direct, deprived of any uncertainty or ambiguity, without any second thought of what was being declared, then that kind of language would NOT have been used. Is it really that hard to give a clear NO?

SE didn't look at the skills, they created the skills and the job. Which means that it could have gone either way, it did not have to be only 1 manner. You've been told already that BLU is not a static figure, there is just one thing that distinguishes it from other classes, and that is the acquisition of skills from monsters with the ability to use X skills for itself with Blue Magic. This entire charade is the metaphorical representation of digging your own grave.

[Physic]

Physic you still didn't answer the question. Are you having trouble reading?



I already offered the answer because there is one element that is taken for granted by Yoshida, and you as well apparently, that by pure logic cannot be held up and stands at the core of what we're talking about.

If you care to pay attention, I didn't say it was an accident, far from it and yet you still think that was the case. It's the way it's been MARKETED. I told you already, if one wanted to give a direct, deprived of any uncertainty or ambiguity, without any second thought of what was being declared, then that kind of language would NOT have been used. Is it really that hard to give a clear NO?

SE didn't look at the skills, they created the skills and the job. Which means that it could have gone either way, it did not have to be only 1 manner. You've been told already that BLU is not a static figure, there is just one thing that distinguishes it from other classes, and that is the acquisition of skills from monsters with the ability to use X skills for itself with Blue Magic. This entire charade is the metaphorical representation of digging your own grave.

i answered yor question.
you said would people who wanted blue have been mad if it wasnt a limited job.

the answer is some would and some wouldnt. Even though limited jobs did not exist, there already exists groups of people who do not like job identity being sacrificed to fit into the ffxiv framework.

you see this with many responses to smn, brd, rdm. Limited jobs were not created from nothing, they are an answer to the question, what do we do when a jobs concept/identity does not mesh with standard combat/duty/job design.

so once again, some people would have liked it, and some wouldnt. Some people would be highly annoyed if blue didnt hunt their skills, or started out level 50 with majority of its skills. And would have been annoyed if it didnt have job spell staples like level 5s, multiple elemental attacks, white wind, mighty guard, death, etc.


As for marketing, you really are overstating this,

this is an excerpt from an article november, close to the blu reveal.

"The day after the Shadowbringers reveal Yoshida gave more detailed on what a “limited job” means. Essentially it means the Blue Mage is intended for players that want to play solo, and is less suited for party-based gameplay. That means that the Blue Mage-exclusive content, The Masked Carnivale will only be available for solo layers in this job"

"So what is a limited job? Yoshida explained that it’s based on one of the fundamental notions of Blue Mage, that it’s a job without balance. Part of the fun of the job is using powerful techniques that wreck game balance. The developers didn’t want people walking into a high-end raid and using Level 5 Death to kill the bosses instantly; at the same time, you don’t want to get a Blue Mage queued up with you who hasn’t learned necessary abilities at a given level. Hence Yoshida historically saying that the job is difficult to adapt.

How do you do that while maintaining party balance? A solution was finally found: you don’t. You let the job be limited, designed for solo play rather than parties. Blue Mage cannot queue up for duty roulettes, any duty requiring matchmaking, PvP matches, Deep Dungeon content, or even certain other content that may not yet be revealed. You can enter instances with pre-formed parties, however.

If this sounds, well, limited… that’s by design. But Yoshida stressed that the point here is that there’s fun stuff to do with Blue Mage and you get to have fun with the job, first and foremost. Rather than making it not feel like Blue Mage, it feels like it should, and it opens the door for other fun limited jobs that may not fit into the game’s role-based party structure. He brought up Beastmaster and Puppetmaster as specific examples, to a chorus of cheers before noting that he was speaking hypothetically at this time."

Is this innaccurate to what we got? he didnt say it has no party play, simply that it is less suited to party play, this implies it does in fact have party play. Also i would point out, very few of the skills require a party. He also elaborated why they call it more solo, the masked carnivale. you can say the marketing should have been more explicit, but this is honestly pretty accurate.

also note, these comments were made at the blue reveal and line up with what he said later, about the purpose of limited jobs being for concepts that dont fit in normal ffxiv framework. He isnt back pedaling. People may have misunderstood, but that was clearly not because they heavily marketed it differently. It plays almost exactly like they said in november.

[Anesteria]

i answered yor question.
you said would people who wanted blue have been mad if it wasnt a limited job.

the answer is some would and some wouldnt. Even though limited jobs did not exist, there already exists groups of people who do not like job identity being sacrificed to fit into the ffxiv framework.

In a world where the “limited job” system did not exist.
Do you truly think that people would be feeling the loss of something that never existed to begin with?

This was the obvious point that you so unremarkably missed. I'm just genuinely asking myself how you could miss the premise and logical process when it was spelt out for you so plainly.

It is physically impossible when the concept itself of a "limited job" did not exist. And Yoshi-P's statement was so broad that it took enjoyment as reliant on this one element, when people would have enjoyed BLU arguably more than they do now had the job been introduced as a normal class FOR STARTERS.

So with this information we can see that Yoshi-P's claims are fallacious and demonstrably wrong, OR he’s lying.
And if he is lying, then one must ask the question, why is he lying. What’s the purpose behind it.

Because if he’s lying, it means the rest is a lie too, since each block of what he’s saying relies on one another, then the entire structure comes crushing down and one can only wonder what exactly they’re attempting to cover.

The answer was already given by Zsplash, and that BLU is just nothing more than a cheap piece of content. And with this realisation, comes a whole other level of consequences, if this is indeed the answer.

[Physic]

In a world where the “limited job” system did not exist.
Do you truly think that people would be feeling the loss of something that never existed to begin with?

This was the obvious point that you so unremarkably missed. I'm just genuinely asking myself how you could miss the premise and logical process when it was spelt out for you so plainly.

It is physically impossible when the concept itself of a "limited job" did not exist. And Yoshi-P's statement was so broad that it took enjoyment as reliant on this one element, when people would have enjoyed BLU arguably more than they do now had the job been introduced as a normal class FOR STARTERS.

So with this information we can see that Yoshi-P's claims are fallacious and demonstrably wrong, OR he’s lying.
And if he is lying, then one must ask the question, why is he lying. What’s the purpose behind it.

Because if he’s lying, it means the rest is a lie too, since each block of what he’s saying relies on one another, then the entire structure comes crushing down and one can only wonder what exactly they’re attempting to cover.

The answer was already given by Zsplash, and that BLU is just nothing more than a cheap piece of content. And with this realisation, come a whole other level of consequences, if this is indeed the answer.

yes, people can miss something that does not exist, invention doesnt come from nothing it comes from needs/desires.

i already told you, before blue mage, they had contraversy around jobs not fitting the spirit of their FF design. bard, being primarily a dps, summoner not having smns with giant OP Skills. red mages not being jacks of all trades.

so yes, some people would have been salty if blu mage was a normal job, because being a normal job means it would have had to be a different type of blue mage.

let me break down the logic here.

can people be upset, they didnt get something that doesnt currently exist? yes. I am an artist, i have done custom work, it is extremely common. In fact, you and many others are upset they didnt get something which never existed. You wanted a blue mage that fit into ffxiv combat/job/design framework. This thing you wanted has never existed, no previous iteration of blue mage was like what you want. No current implemtation matches it. and yet you are upset. You are upset because you percieve your potential enjoyment would be greater if the design was different, likewise there would have been people complaining about a ffxiv ready bluemage and the design sacrifices that would be made to fit that space.


and what exactly is the lie here? I am feeling like you dont really get nuance. There is no lie or fallacious statement. blue is a primarily solo job. If i say i am a tall person, that doesnt mean i am the tallest person in existence. It means i am comparitively tall. Blue is the most solo job we have seen thus far. It can solo to max level. it can obtain 40/49 skills solo, and 44/49 skills duo. it has recurring content, with rewards that can only be done solo.

the dude is giving one paragraph explanations, there is going to be some things that are not fully elaborated.

[Physic]

Also anesteria, you want to believe blue mage is some bargain basement content. That is unlikely, what about blue mage implemntation is cheaper than any other job? it has more skills, it has content made just for it. It doesnt need to be balanced against other jobs, which saves time, but it did need whole new mechanics and systems to support it, so i think thst is offset. Also, by now, i dont think balancing is as hard. they already figured in actions per minute, max dps etc. Blue mage was probably more work than other jobs, because its pipeline does not exist, and must be created as they go.

[Anesteria]

yes, people can miss something that does not exist, invention doesnt come from nothing it comes from needs/desires.

i already told you, before blue mage, they had contraversy around jobs not fitting the spirit of their FF design. bard, being primarily a dps, summoner not having smns with giant OP Skills. red mages not being jacks of all trades..

No they can't Physic. Unless they're time travelers, it would be impossible. The concept of "limited job" didn't exist until they created it, it is not something that people already knew that it was called "limited job" that it would have BLU as its first class along with everything down to a tee that was to come with it. And that's not even the entirety of the issue, because Yoshida's statements IMPLY that it could not have been any other way when he deems the "limited job" as the only thing that would allow such enjoyment when they know they could have created something that was well within their potential to do that had nothing to do with a "limited job" system.

Unlike the Blue Mage, this was created in a vacuum. So they're not comparable, as I said earlier, people wouldn't be complaining about BLU's existence, as they do with the "limited job" system. BLU is an established job that has worked within its own games according to the game's own gameplay, without necessitating any "limited job" that didn't even exist at the time, FFXI included and the most eclatant example being a MMORPG. Yours, and Yoshida's position are indefensible, you are grasping at straws.

"the dude" is the Director, he's not random low-level employee number 3901, he's supposed to have a certain capability. Ion is the same as him, he's there to put on the face and give the best pr responses and try to swivel out of tough questions because any of them would have to show commitment or admit they're wrong, and they need to cover their tracks so that they can claim "Ah but we did NOT EXPLICITLY say that X was our objective/that Y was how things were going to pan out".

[ReiMakoto]

My bad, i had it in my head that mind blast also had a 1 second cast time, so yeah fire agnon is the second best weaving tool. All other points still stand about abilities though, you still only need 1 of each kind out of the mass of BLU abilities to be optimal rendering the other abilities of same potency/cast time pointless

So rewind back, i just went in game and checked, mind blast IS a 1 second cast time, making it a superior weaving tool to fire agnon due to dealing magic damage, so all my previous points still stands. Yes fire agnon has more range, but you want to be in melee range to weave anyway due to peculiar light.

[Physic]

No they can't Physic. ....

let me try to make it more mathematical.

according to Yoshida, in november


Limited Job= Job whose design or concept does not mesh with normal ffxiv job/class/role/combat design.



so, using the logical law of substitution

Substitution is a fundamental concept in logic. A substitution is a syntactic transformation on formal expressions. To apply a substitution to an expression means to consistently replace its variable, or placeholder, symbols by other expressions. The resulting expression is called a substitution instance, or short instance, of the original expression.

Would people have been upset if Blue mage was not a limited Job.


subsititute


would people have been upset if Blue mage was not a Job whose design or concept does not mesh with normal ffxiv job/class/role/combat design.

And the answer is yes, because we have ALREADY seen people mad that existing jobs were changed to fit the overall framework of FFXIV design.




now, you personally believe Yoshida is incorrect, and blue mage can be put into a ffxiv framework with no appreciable loss. OR you believe that such loss would be acceptable based on what sacrifices might be made the other way. That is a fair opinion to have. But it is an opinion, not a logical truism, or universally accepted concept.


My entire beef with your opinion, is you seem to not understand it is an opinion, it is not a fact, the things you state as facts are not facts, they are guesses, suppositions, hopes, and fears.


Your premise is Yoshida willfully sought to keep an awesome perfect ffxiv blue mage concept from players. Why? what would he gain by doing so? Is it possible that he believed that this iteration of blue mage was truer to what blue mage is about? Which is more likely.