Please make Blue Mage a normal job

[MrKimper]

no side wants something that makes both sides happy. Making blu into a class that fits easily into a dps raid framework requires them to remove or nerf most of the skills, change the overall design philosophy.


there are some things people dont realize about the uniformity of normal class design.


Every class has a fairly similar amount of skills
Every class will prune skills that are too similar
Every class must fit into 1 of 3 roles and be incompetent at the other two roles
Every class needs to have a similar power level within its role
Every class must be expected to have many of its role defining abilities based primarily on its level.



you cannot make blue fit into this framework without some major reworks, prune most of its skills, change its aquisition method, removing or nerfing its cross role style.


And before you say, they could have both, no that is not likely, the game design likes to unify things and have purity of purpose and uniform design frameworks for its normal jobs. They wont want skills to operate differently in duty finder,and differently outside of duty finder. They are not going to balance, design and maintain 2 different things for blue

It seems like you really dislike how normal jobs work, I gotta ask, do you just sit around on BLU all day and run the same 4 year old content over and over again?

[Anesteria]

Jobs have already had to make many sacrifices to fit into the FFXIV framework :continued:>.

It was perfectly possible to have what you wanted without the limited job system, yet by your previous posts you seem to rely on this imaginary balance which makes your point self-defeating.

Furthermore, what you are detailing about "limited jobs" is not what limited jobs are right now, or what they will be in the future following SE's purported plans and faulty logic, despite their vague statements.
The changes you propose are already contradicting their stated objectives in regards to the limited job system, which means that what you want aren't limited jobs but an entirely different beast.

BLU with "solo play" as objective to be integral to the limited job system. -> X abilities require groups, and raid content at the maximum allowed level also requires a group.

Expectations that SHOULD come with "solo play" as objective SHOULD be reflected with players playing solo only and being allowed to do so on the content they're locked in. -> Players still group up to play because they want/have to, indicating players want to play freely and that the system is flawed from its conception since the game is a... MMORPG.

Alleged expectations from Yoshi-P's interview: The expectations were apparently that people were going to disregard the solo aspect anyway, and grouping up was par for the course. -> Answer given only in hindsight after the fact has happened ignoring the criticism that people already saw at the announcement of "limited jobs". In addition, SE undermining its own philosophy as a result of feedback = Necessity to fit the narrative after the facts leading to... lies or alternatively, the beginning of backpedaling and uncertainty.

Nothing was sacrificed because changes to jobs happen all the time in all the different games, if the game itself demanded such changes, so it should be. The limited job system however was not mandated by the game, but by the company (more likely Yoshi-P + certain elements) because of X reasons that are, as some others have already suggested and are likely to be true, to market Shadowbringers and to give a treat to the dog (yes what Cid implied in FFXII).

It's reminiscent of what happened with WoW. Blizzard announced the Allied Races at a time where BFA was the only thing to expect in terms of content, but the wait was still quite long, so they added 4 distinct races of the 6 showcased. But there was this difference in effort and commitment, in that the races were not locked, they could be used like any other race they simply had to be earned, AND more are going to be added in packs of 2. BLU simply remained a tool.

[TaiyoShikasu]

yeah, but they dont want blue warping the high level new content metas, so they would have to nerf peculiar light to be in line with blm magic debuff. they might make it the same effect so it doesnt stack, like slashing buff from ninja/marauder. They would also have to balance blu overall dps a bit lower to make up for utility, and non selfish skills, like ninja, and brd.

This isn't a TCG where the creators can curate a metagame. While some jobs are meant to interact with one another such as DRG with BRD/MCH or DRK/PLD and any job that offers Slashing Debuff, the metagame of FFXIV and likely any MMO is largely done by the playerbase given how they're the ones doing all the number crunching.

[Physic]

It seems like you really dislike how normal jobs work, I gotta ask, do you just sit around on BLU all day and run the same 4 year old content over and over again?

its not about disliking it, its fine for what it is. It has good sides to its design paradigms as well.


but it also limits some good design choices. Thats why a small number of limited jobs is a good idea to me. Because when i want the normal ffxiv experience i got like 20 jobs to do it on, but i want a change up, until blue, there wasnt much, i am looking forward to even more. Not saying they should stop making normal jobs, just that variety is very good thing imo

[Physic]

This isn't a TCG where the creators can curate a metagame. While some jobs are meant to interact with one another such as DRG with BRD/MCH or DRK/PLD and any job that offers Slashing Debuff, the metagame of FFXIV and likely any MMO is largely done by the playerbase given how they're the ones doing all the number crunching.

this is an extremely curated meta game, moreso than cards, they change things live, and retroactively change content that doesnt line up with their intentions. They also curate it before we even see it, in their initial designs. And you best be;ieve the people who create this game number crunch as much or more than the playerbase. They write the equations that we try to figure out.

[Physic]

Iclipped for chars

limited jobs are not solo jobs, limited jobs are jobs that design/concept dont fit within the standard ffxiv content framework


just because blue is more solo oriented than other jobs, doesnt mean it wasnt supposed to have any party content at all.


"
Polygon: While Blue Mage was released to be a solo-oriented class, players have been partying up more than ever to collect skills, clear dungeons, etc. How was the release of Blue Mage different from what you initially expected it to be?
Naoki Yoshida: The release of Blue Mage did not fall far from my expectations — the job was not meant to be subject to the standard rules of FF14 gameplay that players are used to, but rather it was meant to give players freedom in the way they approach the job. That is why it is a “limited job” only in the sense of content matching; there is no limit to the type of play style, and that was the initial concept behind it."




i believe this is the quote you are refering to, he clearly says here, the concept behind a limited job is not that it is solo, but that it breaks the general rules of FFXIV. I mean, you choose to believe he had no idea what is going on, but i highly doubt they didnt know they didnt want all aspects to be solo, its an MMO, played with people, its definitely going to have some form of team up potential.


"Yoshida: The process of developing one of these jobs doesn’t start with us asking ourselves what will be the next limited job. We are, however, mindful of two things: ensuring both that the job or job type we implement will be enjoyed by the players, and that it will make for an interesting and fun experience. During this process, if we come to a potential job that we feel may not necessarily fit well within standard party gameplay, we will then consider whether or not we make it a limited job."


another quote further saying limited jobs are defined by being outside the standard party gameplay rules. I fully believe this, because blue mage and limited jobs was partially a result of them seeing, with rdm, that they could not fit every design concept they wanted to within the ffxiv standard party framework. They came up with a compelling class, but its a bit far conceptually from red mage of old. The limited job concept allows them to build things outside that framework when they have ideas that work better outside that framework.


Yes, its the first one, so it needs some iteration, some refining, but its a great idea which imo can only add more to the game in the long run.

[Anesteria]

Physic he did not deny it. He purposefully used ambiguous language which I explained with what I stated earlier (multiple times even). To a question like that, the answer would be very simple if you wanted to make your actual intentions known.
You respond with:

"The release went as planned because BLU was NEVER/NOT meant to be a "solo" job as people have been claiming it to be. It was meant to be X and Y, etc."

If anything this entire thing should lend credence to what is being said about BLU being used as a tool. And I do not at all think that he didn't know what he was doing, on the contrary I essentially stated that he knew VERY WELL what he was doing if you read the part concerning SE's objectives.

However, you do shed light on the issues presented before us.
Because this would all mean that:

A) SE made a mistake and did not know what they were doing (as you implied), but I do not think at all this is the case. They should have learned with 1.0 to not release unfinished content.
B) BLU was used as a tool, a treat to keep the playerbase at bay, as it's been suggested multiple times on this thread. What this means is that it's not a sincere look at the class and what Yoshi-P is saying is a lie, thus your point crumbles.
C) This is nothing more than a test to gauge the reactions and finetune the job so that it may transition into an advanced job proper like the Red/Black Mage. But thus far this is the more outlandish possibility.

But a priori, what you suggest or Yoshida might say, is nothing more than a poor excuse. Jobs change according to the game, it's what happens, and what he says right there, can once again, and please this time answer:

Taking into account that people who liked BLU have been asking for this job to be made available for a long time in FFXIV.
Would, the people who actually cared about BLU, have been upset at this job NOT being made into a "limited job" because anything else would not have respected the purported "enjoyment" they could get from the job?

Before you read the answer I would like you to actually stop and think about it.

NO > Because it is physically and logically impossible for that to happen. The "limited job" part was not something that existed before BLU or even before the presentation was announced. Which makes what Yoshi-P says about enjoyment complete nonsense. People would have enjoyed the class regardless of the "limited job" system because had BLU been introduced as any other job, people wouldn't be complaining about its existence as people do with the limited job, but they would complain about other issues that affect ALL the classes in ALL the games.
This is nothing more than a poor excuse to either keep BLU out for lack of will to put effort (and yet decide to introduce something completely new like Gunbreaker) or personal reasons from the dev team that we do not know of.

YES > Please explain the mental gymnastics on this logically impossible feat.

[TaiyoShikasu]

>No limit to the initial playstyle
>Is garbage as anything except for the role it's slotted in

this is an extremely curated meta game, moreso than cards, they change things live, and retroactively change content that doesnt line up with their intentions. They also curate it before we even see it, in their initial designs. And you best be;ieve the people who create this game number crunch as much or more than the playerbase. They write the equations that we try to figure out.

Okay, now if that were true why are there groups that blitz through content via disregarding mechanics via Limit Breaks or even skipping them via Limit Breaks and none of that content being changed to negate that? If there was a curated metagame here, that would be the only viable composition as what happens in TCGs where only one or in an especially diverse metagame three decks can compete.

Instead the one (somewhat flexible) composition only applies to blazing through content faster than intended if run by people who know what they're doing while basically literally any composition as long as people are even somewhat competent can clear content even while disregarding how things were intended to be done.

No changes were ever made to Byakko EX when it was (and even still is because people can't push buttons) done through an unintended method. Same with O11S where one mechanic like halfway through the fight is totally disregarded via tank Limit Break. There's probably an intended way for it to be done, but who knows if anyone knows how. Same with Optimized Meteor & Optimized Saggitarius Arrow in the first half of O12S. There's an intended way to do it and then there's the way discovered by the playerbase that has not being changed.

Another example of jobs meant to interact is WHM and SCH with the two complimenting each others kits. Instead WHM is left to the wayside in favour of AST. WHM is still viable as is every other job because of how the game is designed, but the metagame is a bug rather than a feature.

[Physic]

Physic he did not deny it. He purposefully used ambiguous language which I explained with what I stated earlier (multiple times even). To a question like that, the answer would be very simple if you wanted to make your actual intentions known.
You respond with:

"The release went as planned because BLU was NEVER/NOT meant to be a "solo" job as people have been claiming it to be. It was meant to be X and Y, etc."

If anything this entire thing should lend credence to what is being said about BLU being used as a tool. And I do not at all think that he didn't know what he was doing, on the contrary I essentially stated that he knew VERY WELL what he was doing if you read the part concerning SE's objectives.

However, you do shed light on the issues presented before us.
Because this would all mean that:

A) SE made a mistake and did not know what they were doing (as you implied), but I do not think at all this is the case. They should have learned with 1.0 to not release unfinished content.
B) BLU was used as a tool, a treat to keep the playerbase at bay, as it's been suggested multiple times on this thread. What this means is that it's not a sincere look at the class and what Yoshi-P is saying is a lie, thus your point crumbles.
C) This is nothing more than a test to gauge the reactions and finetune the job so that it may transition into an advanced job proper like the Red/Black Mage. But thus far this is the more outlandish possibility.

But a priori, what you suggest or Yoshida might say, is nothing more than a poor excuse. Jobs change according to the game, it's what happens, and what he says right there, can once again, and please this time answer:

Taking into account that people who liked BLU have been asking for this job to be made available for a long time in FFXIV.
Would, the people who actually cared about BLU, have been upset at this job NOT being made into a "limited job" because anything else would not have respected the purported "enjoyment" they could get from the job?

Before you read the answer I would like you to actually stop and think about it.

NO > Because it is physically and logically impossible for that to happen. The "limited job" part was not something that existed before BLU or even before the presentation was announced. Which makes what Yoshi-P says about enjoyment complete nonsense.

YES > Please explain the mental gymnastics on this logically impossible feat.

most of your implications are not implied at all by the quotes i linked, they may or may not be true, butnothing in the quotes suggest them

a) they knew what they were doing, they didnt put skills in 4-8 man content by accident.
b) they never mention or imply blue was meant to keep players at bay, i am sure it was meant to satisfy players as all content is, but its not like blue was promoted or expected with stormblood
c)when he says this is the starter phase, he clearly says it is to remain limited, he is saying they have a lot of plans for the job, and this is just the beginning. Plans being higher levels, and new content, and expansion of carnivale.

would people have been salty? some would, some wouldnt. There are people salty about rdm, smn etc. There are people who love it. But being a producer/developer isnt simply about fan service. He has to think about and set up things users wouldnt neccessarily think of on their own. He has to be ahead and be thinking about new things, because anything he develops wont hit audiences for 6 months-year later. He has to start projects that wont be fully finished or refined for months after initial release.

blue mage is the result of a realization of some of the limitations in design from standard ffxiv rules. It is however a work in progress, like everything else in a game as a service mmo.

now i will say, for people who want more regular ffxiv jobs, to use in new ffxiv content, blue is a miss. But thats why shadowbringers is coming out in 4 months. Anyhow its definitely the case that blue needs more reason to play it legit , in more situations. So far thats the big flaw of limited i would say. Not enough reason/places/content to explore the job.

[UnrealTai]

OP topic correction
Please make Blue Mage “a” job.
Fixed