What if DNC is SHOMHOW a DPS?

[Vespar]

Of course we didn't. But we don't need another DPS either. In fact we don't any new classes or jobs at all, and none of those that have been added since the launch of ARR have been needed.
But the mere fact that a new job isn't needed doesn't mean it can't be fun to have some new options for jobs.

I think there's a misunderstanding her because I left out a lot of context. There's only so many ways you can do tanking/healing. As it is all the healers/tanks right now play pretty much the same way. Which is what I meant by the statement.
That said. a physical "healer" would be interesting to see because its something that we dont have yet.
Right now its all regen heals or shield heals but there's not much variance either way to the basic functionality of the class. You could argue that SCH has a pet, AST has cards, and WHM is just straight basic heals. But they all cover the same position in muych the same way. Cast a spell, HP is restored...
Then there's the tanks, they also all play pretty much the same way, but also have slight variations between them.

DPS on the other hand don't all play the same way, which is why I didnt feel like we needed a new tank or healer, but was fine with more DPS. New DPS also arent necessary mind you, but its easier to offer more variance in the type of play with a DPS as there are more types of DPS roles. (Support, Caster, Physical Ranged, Melee or combinations of each in the case of BLU)

I'm all for a physical healer. That would be interesting although Im not sure how it would work in theory.

No. There are three roles in this game - tank, healer and DPS. That is a fact. People claiming DPS need more love because they choose to break DPS down into "ooh but there's ranged physical and ranged magic, blah blah blah," are kidding themselves.

People need to stop with this. This isn't the kind of game where the type of damage you deal is at all relevant. Nobody pretends that WAR and PLD are different roles just because one of them has a shield and a bunch of magic spells, so why are we suddenly trying to spin this to make it seem like DPS jobs are lacking and need even more attention than they already get?

I actually took that information directly from the game itself on the character job/classes menu window. Like it or not, DPS do break down into more than one kind. Yes they fulfill a certain role, but they also cant just be meshed into one single "thing". Some are heavy hitters, some are support, some are casters, some arent. I'm not saying we NEED more DPS, technically we dont NEED any new jobs. I'm merely saying that if you break it down further, then technically its the physical ranged DPS bracket that is lacking.

[kikix12]

Also if they suddenly did make PLD a "Magic" tank... and left the other 3 "Melee" tanks you can bet people would then be saying, "We have 3 melee tanks and 1 magic tank. We need more magic tanks to round it out." Tho if they made PLD a magic tank they might as well make DRK a magic tank... not that they ever will lol.

Neither Paladin nor Dark Knight are magic knights. The brunt of their attacks are still physical and the stat for damage is still strength. Their armors are still physical as well.

A spell or three does not make one a caster, just like melee attacks don't make Red Mage a melee DPS.

If they did rework Paladin into an actual magic tank with brunt of their attack being magical...that would be a different thing. But that's unlikely. It's another class entirely, a Magic Knight. For Paladins magic was always secondary.


And yes, people would want more caster tanks. But how is that different from now?! I still want caster tanks (despite there being none) and I want non-caster healers. That's only natural. I use all three roles preferring healing over the others. But I don't have much of a variety of gameplay styles to choose from with healers or tanks. Sure, the healers and tanks we have currently are a bit more distinct from each other than DPS, but their overall playstyle is not really different at all.

[InkstainedGwyn]

Not that I expected anything less, but I'm laugh/crying at the reach attempts here. Healers and tanks don't even have enough classes to separate into "types" of healers/tanks and we've got salty (spoiled) DPS crying because they want new animations to do the same thing they always do. I've been listening to people describe the way Gunbreaker "should" have been on various threads and the majority comes down to: "shoot a bunch, then jump into close combat and melee a bit". Now, correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't that sound kind of familiar?



Huh.

"OMG ARE YOU STUPID? ONE IS PHYSICAL, ONE IS MAGIC!"

No. If all I do is "push buttons to make people's health go up" then all you do is push buttons to make people's health go down. What you want is just new animations and aesthetics - and so do I.

"But I don't like half of the classes in my chosen role, so let me explain why I want more." I don't like SCH. I'm not fond of the playstyle, I prefer big-number heals/regens to shields. So I get to count that out, right? So I only have two classes to pick from (that's how this works, right?)

I mean, I could point out the main difference between "tank/heal/DPS" - the level of responsibility. After all, DPS just get to push a memorized button rotation while (rarely) avoiding mechanics (note: there are those of you who have learned to do both and I love you for it.) Tanks get to do all of that but also backwards and while also watching aggro (for the "aggro is the best parser" dipsticks) and tank swap mechanics. Healers should be maintaining as much of a DPS rotation as they can while also watching the same (or often extra) mechanics and the lives of the DPS who have tunnel vision and decide that Cid's mechanics are just "suggestions." (To be fair, there isn't much ambient damage if the other teams don't miss mechanics like duskblade [they always do] but you'd better hope you don't have more than 1 vuln when you take that crush tether or you're going to lay there until I decide I can spare the MP to rez you.) So I get it. It's super appealing to play roles that focus and require less multitasking. But don't then belittle the people who do want to take on that extra level of responsibility you really don't want and tell them to be happy with "new aesthetics" once every 6+ years.

[Risvertasashi]

Neither Paladin nor Dark Knight are magic knights. The brunt of their attacks are still physical and the stat for damage is still strength. Their armors are still physical as well.

They are magic knights.

It sounds like you want a full on caster tank, which is understandable. But Paladin and Dark Knight are the very images of magic knights.

[Gemina]

I think it's because the game does this... PLD and WAR are not "Magic Tank and Melee Tank." They are all Melee. The code of the game also breaks down the DPS jobs into Melee, Ranged, and Caster by way of not only gear, but also how the DF matches people. Also the way the limit gauge works. If you have more than one of a job your limit gauge fills slower.

Also if they suddenly did make PLD a "Magic" tank... and left the other 3 "Melee" tanks you can bet people would then be saying, "We have 3 melee tanks and 1 magic tank. We need more magic tanks to round it out." Tho if they made PLD a magic tank they might as well make DRK a magic tank... not that they ever will lol.

I'm as Even Steven as they come, but this "imbalance" I'm seeing tossed around is ridiculous. If there is an imbalance, it's that healers and tanks have fewer choices than DPS overall. You literally have the choice to go melee physical, ranged, or magical, and have multiple choices within each of those sub roles.

You pointed it out yourself; we don't have a magic (I'm guessing caster type) tank and a melee tank. We also don't have a melee healer either. What about this imbalance? Shouldn't you guys be pushing for these as well? I guess we're going to need four magic tanks now with the addition of GUN; and if DNC comes in as our first hybrid healer, we're going to need more of them too for the sake of rounding things out. Go ahead, and tell me I'm being ridiculous.

[kazzel120]

As it is all the healers/tanks right now play pretty much the same way. Which is what I meant by the statement.


Ok just going to stop you here right now. No not all tanks play the same not even close if you actually took the time to play them you'd know this.

Getting real sick of this whiney ass dps should have x job because it doesnt make since as a tank/healer. I for 1 would habe quit had they not made Gunbreaker a tank.

HW made me change from a dps main into a tank main because of just DRK.

[Barraind]

There's only so many ways you can do tanking/healing.

I mean, theres only a couple ways to do damage. You can hit something, you can hit something from far away, and you can shoot magic at it.

14 has decided to do make that

Hit things with a sword. Hit things with knives. Hit things with your fist and feet. Hit things with a spear.
Shoot things with a gun. Shoot things with a bow.
Cast elemental magic at things. Cast elemental magic at things and then hit it with a sword. Poison a guy and have a pet go tink to let you cast slightly better magic missles at it. Cast a lot of nonsense things and be level 50.

(If 14 followed other games and let you use different weapons (or let paladins use a goddamned mace already), youd end up with:

hit stuff with a melee weapon and sometimes hit it harder, hit stuff with a melee weapon and jump on it, hit stuff with a melee weapon and sometimes sneak around, hit stuff with a melee weapon or your fists, shoot it with a range weapon and sing, shoot it with a range weapon and a flamethrower)


That you dont think its possible to have MANY healers capable of operating through: Direct Heals, Heal over Time, Shielding, Percentage Mitigation, Field Effects, and Ancillary Buffs (because theres about 30 different ways to make those work BEFORE you get into ways other games make healers work that are mechanically impossible to work in this game [Guild Wars Monks, WAR Shaman, WoW Shaman [Chain Heal is probably on the list of "things we would never see in 14"]) is incredibly short sighted.

Tanks are slightly less easy to work with, and its pretty telling we already see some of the worst parts of tank mechanics in the Gunbreaker trailer, because they decided at this point to give tanks similar amounts of mitigation and not use a mitigation / evasion / HP pool balancing as a core mechanical difference (or something like how other games handle the Warrior / Knights / Evasion Tank paradigms).

Rift's system pretty much invalidates the "but how can you have more healers?" just by existing. Its incredibly easy.

you just have a lot of people who play games that want to see huge flashy numbers and see things die, or who just dont want to have to keep people alive, and they will never seriously play tanks or healers even if you had that much variety. Its been like that in MMO's since MMO's were a thing.

14's classes are also significantly reduced in what they can be capable of due to a lot of the balancing coming around 5-10 minute single-fight 8-man mechanics. You cant actually have a huge amount of depth in what healers and tanks can do in healing and tanking mechanics, because the game doesnt let healers be healers or tanks be tanks.

[kikix12]

They are magic knights.

It sounds like you want a full on caster tank, which is understandable. But Paladin and Dark Knight are the very images of magic knights.

Eh...no. They are knights with a little bit of supplementary magic. Lore-wise Dark Knight does not even use magic AT ALL. He uses the darkness that dwells within him.

As I said, Paladins are as much magic knights as this iteration of Red Mage is a melee job. A proper magic knight would use magic-enchanted sword to deal damage with possibly using spells straight out here or there (Rune Fencer/Spellblade etc.).

Yes, I want a straight out caster tank. But that does have little to do with how Paladins in this game are not magic knights.

[InkstainedGwyn]

Eh...no. They are knights with a little bit of supplementary magic. Lore-wise Dark Knight does not even use magic AT ALL. He uses the darkness that dwells within him.

As I said, Paladins are as much magic knights as this iteration of Red Mage is a melee job. A proper magic knight would use magic-enchanted sword to deal damage with possibly using spells straight out here or there (Rune Fencer/Spellblade etc.).

Yes, I want a straight out caster tank. But that does have little to do with how Paladins in this game are not magic knights.

Agreed. Caster tanks aren't "tin cans that can use some magical protections", caster tanks are actual casters (usually in light armour) who rely on int/dex and spells to protect them. SWtOR did caster tanks right with shadows/assassins.

I think it'd be fun to see what XIV could do with that, if they decided to break the mold. Maybe GUN is a step towards it, if they wear medium armour. We'll see, I guess (I'm not expecting much, but it looks fun enough to try.)

[Barraind]

Best caster tank: Dragon Age 2 Mage.

It didnt even have a tree for it. You just took spirit healer for passive healing, force mage as a secondary for massive resists to detrimental effects, every other passive ability available, haste, and a couple filler points in spells you could cast.

You cast haste, gave everyone weapon enchantments to a things weakness, healed a few times when you had mana, and tanked stuff with your robe and staff.

It was a build they specifically tried to keep out of 2, and put back into inquisition because people did it anyway.


Sadly, mages got overshadowed by rogues being able to maintain 100% crit and 300% crit damage passively. The fun "Fnal boss cant kill me if I 3 shot it" mentality.