Should they remove positionals at this point?

[Deceptus]

Basically:

Does increased uptime and optimal GCD mistake minimization do more dps than the potency loss of missing a positional.

If yes, than positional should be removed. How many threads have been started begging tanks to not move mobs?

[mosaicex]

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

Yes, uptime AND optimal rotation have always been the biggest factor in doing decent DPS.
YET
YET people in this thread act like missing few positionals during mechanic wombo combo and such will somehow murder their DPS. I mean, if it was pre-2.4/3.0 era DRG like I've mentioned earlier then they would have a point, but that's not the case anymore.
I suspect some of them had been called out for poor performance (due to aforementioned factors) but decided to blame it all on positionals.

There is a ton of far more interesting ways for a DPS to squeeze out their DPS.

Name some, I've yet to see anyone bringing up anything noteworthy in this thread to compensate for removal of positionals.
It's always 'UHH I don't like positionals, dev should just delete it!' 'Positionals aren't hard at all! I JUST have 'difficulty' doing them during certain part of the fight.', and my favorite 'There are better ways! (proceed to not name any)'

If they don't like positionals then there are 5 other jobs for them to move to (actually casters have to deal with position too, but positioning instead of positional. Range physical DPS can move freely but often have to deal with more mechanics due to it).
Every jobs in this game have upsides and downsides, but no, people want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Vaer]

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

There are mechanics that force casters to move, and they lose 100+ potency for every GCD missed (gets pretty bad on BLM which is why they get more movement utility, smn might be the only exception but they have more stuff to keep track off), while melee lose 20-60 per GCD on a positional loss if they can still hit the boss. Creative use of utility (just like True North for melees, for casters Swiftcast, Manipulation, Dual/Triplecast etc) to keep their rotation going when they have to move.

Seiryu is mentioned but the in/out and left/right (requires slidecasting/timed casts to keep rotation going without getting smashed) is annoying for casters, too - while melee might miss out on one of two positionals with no True North but can still hit it. Actually the warp to the furthest person is supposed to punish casters as well. In first is supposed to benefit melee, and Out first is supposed to benefit casters. Coursing River pretty much ruins everyone unless a caster has utility up, and you can arms' or surecast slappy hands knockback for one or two extra GCDs.

But you say, hey bards and machinists can keep moving and shoot: currently they take a damage loss and are reliant on other jobs for their damage ceiling (dragoon, scholar really helps brd), no knockback immunities and harder time managing enmity.

The thing I will agree with is relying on the tank to not spin the boss and position properly is kinda meh but other dps jobs have their own drawbacks to it as well.

Usually if there is a lot of movement the DPS check is set very low (SeiryuEX has a light one) anyway to make up for it.

[Nedkel]

Basically:

Does increased uptime and optimal GCD mistake minimization do more dps than the potency loss of missing a positional.

If yes, than positional should be removed. How many threads have been started begging tanks to not move mobs?

Does dragoon, monk or samurai underperfoming due to the positionals in comparison to other dps?
Not really.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...044&dataset=80

Asking for a mechanic removal just because you guys want higher number is absurd, what does make you think that SE removing it will give you the potency bonuses you get right now from positionals? Rotfl no, they will nerf you down in order to balance stuff out, they wont give you that potency number for attacks from all directions.
There is no need to change it, classes you guys mention are completely fine with it and balanced.
If you want to have big number play a summoner, there is nothing that chains you to play one class.

The most popular job right now from what I’ve seen is Bard, followed closed by Red Mage. I think it’s telling that the most popular DPS jobs are the ones that have no positional requirements whatsoever and simple, easy rotations (Bard technically doesn’t even have a standard rotation).

I think that if melee didn’t have positional, the gap between ranged and melee would become smaller.

https://ffxivcensus.com/2018-12/

All classes are similarly popular.

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

There is a ton of far more interesting ways for a DPS to squeeze out their DPS. Positionals are just one way that doesn't mesh well with most of the fight designs and depending on the fight you can miss out on the positional damage at no fault of your own.

Yes and there are already classes that does it and doesnt have positionals, go try them out and leave the melee dps for those who like it that way.

[Kaonis]

Yes, uptime AND optimal rotation have always been the biggest factor in doing decent DPS.
YET
YET people in this thread act like missing few positionals during mechanic wombo combo and such will somehow murder their DPS. I mean, if it was pre-2.4/3.0 era DRG like I've mentioned earlier then they would have a point, but that's not the case anymore.
I suspect some of them had been called out for poor performance (due to aforementioned factors) but decided to blame it all on positionals.


Name some, I've yet to see anyone bringing up anything noteworthy in this thread to compensate for removal of positionals.
It's always 'UHH I don't like positionals, dev should just delete it!' 'Positionals aren't hard at all! I JUST have 'difficulty' doing them during certain part of the fight.', and my favorite 'There are better ways! (proceed to not name any)'

If they don't like positionals then there are 5 other jobs for them to move to (actually casters have to deal with position too, but positioning instead of positional. Range physical DPS can move freely but often have to deal with more mechanics due to it).
Every jobs in this game have upsides and downsides, but no, people want to have their cake and eat it too.

I literally named some. You even quoted what I named. This is the worst attempt at a strawman that I've ever seen.

The bottom line is positionals are a relic from the 1.X days when mobs were more stationary. And as they are in fights now they just cause you to have a loss of performance at no fault of you own, which is not fun and not a reflection as your skill as a player. If I clip my oGCD into my GCD that is on me. If I move into/out of an AoE or move too late/early for a mechanic to maximize uptime, that's on me. The mob spinning around on its own or mechanics that prevent you from being able to do positionals is not the fault of the player, and its frustrating.

And again, other games have succeeded and had fun melee jobs without positional gimmicks slapped onto all of them.

[Havenchild]

From my experience playing MNK (since ARR) and SAM, I think outright removing positionals would make the melee classes all kinda flat unless something changed about each class to make them more unique. Positionals were also tied to the reasoning for giving Melee DPS higher potency due to both the angle a mob had to be hit AND the increased danger of being melee.

A quick skill adjustment on True North for longer duration and less recast time is all thats really needed to not invalidate but smooth out the experience for melee and thats if we even really needed an adjustment at all.

[mosaicex]

I literally named some.

You named what's ALREADY IN THE GAME, something positionals are supposed to work in conjunction with. I am asking for a replacement in lieu of positional removal.

The bottom line is positionals are a relic from the 1.X days when mobs were more stationary. And as they are in fights now they just cause you to have a loss of performance at no fault of you own, which is not fun and not a reflection as your skill as a player.

Guess what, genius. The current bosses from ARR through SB are pretty damn stationary too, EX trials, Savage fights, 24 man bosses, most of them anyway.
This whole bosses movement kills my DPS and my puppies are way, WAY overblown.
Or did you mean mobs as in trash dungeon/overworld mobs that die in like 10 seconds?

The mob spinning around on its own or mechanics that prevent you from being able to do positionals is not the fault of the player, and its frustrating.

Again, stop pretending this is somehow an extremely common occurrence. It isn't, not in any fights where DPS matters anyway.

And again, other games have succeeded and had fun melee jobs without positional gimmicks slapped onto all of them.

Feel free to go enjoy them. God forbid XIV being its own thing for once.

[Shougun]

Wonder if they could get rid of true north by giving all positional jobs a passive mechanic that is a buff that increases by one for each successful positional combo chain of 2 or more (positional that is merely one button doesn't count), up to 5 buff stack (no timer), each missed positional ability consumes one buff and makes it successful. Vaguely a more friendly true north, less customization but does give players another button for something else.

Could mess around with numbers if it's too strong or weak - like the cost to earn, cost to spend (like instead of one buff consumed it's X), max stack, or even have a passive "1 buff will return every 2 minutes if no stack exists" sort of thing as a soft safety net (start fights with a small failsafe).

As a side bonus for those who keep the stack high all the time (not missing positional) give them like 3% movement speed per stack lol (helping melee run out of circles and back into enemies, 5 stacks of 3% is 15% boost in combat).

[seraseth]

Even as someone who loathes positionals with a fiery passion, I don't think they need to be stripped and banned from the game entirely. In other games, I just don't play the jobs that have them, since I know I hate them. That's generally the rogue types.

It just sucks that here its *every* melee, keeping me out of an entire type of job. Ninja makes sense cause of the whole backstab thing, and monk is built from the ground up around positionals, but I really don't see the point in drg/sam having them. Would be nice to have some jobs with them for those who like it, and some without.

[Nedkel]

Would be nice to have some jobs with them for those who like it, and some without.

Summoner, Black mage, Bard, machnist.

Wonder if they could get rid of true north by giving all positional jobs a passive mechanic that is a buff that increases by one for each successful positional combo chain of 2 or more (positional that is merely one button doesn't count), up to 5 buff stack (no timer), each missed positional ability consumes one buff and makes it successful. Vaguely a more friendly true north, less customization but does give players another button for something else.

Could mess around with numbers if it's too strong or weak - like the cost to earn, cost to spend (like instead of one buff consumed it's X), max stack, or even have a passive "1 buff will return every 2 minutes if no stack exists" sort of thing as a soft safety net (start fights with a small failsafe).

As a side bonus for those who keep the stack high all the time (not missing positional) give them like 3% movement speed per stack lol (helping melee run out of circles and back into enemies, 5 stacks of 3% is 15% boost in combat).

Monks, dragoons or samurais doesnt need buffs.