Should they remove positionals at this point?

[ElHeggunte]

I don't understand the hate for positionals. Is it because people think they have to run around a lot to reach the Rear and the Flank? Honestly you're not supposed to be moving very much more than someone just standing around. Let's make a diagram, yes?



There. Everything yellow is the Rear. Everything blue is the Flank (it's early morning so it's not as blue as it should be and I didn't feel like waiting around for the sun to move. Sue me). Even including the bits inside the hitbox. You should be standing on the border between Flank and Rear and taking only a step or two to move between them. That also makes it very easy to move with the target if it turns. You won't always be able to hit them, but a few misses aren't going to shatter your DPS if you're playing well otherwise (and True North just got a nice CD reduction).

[Burningskull]

I don't understand the hate for positionals. Is it because people think they have to run around a lot to reach the Rear and the Flank? Honestly you're not supposed to be moving very much more than someone just standing around. Let's make a diagram, yes?



There. Everything yellow is the Rear. Everything blue is the Flank (it's early morning so it's not as blue as it should be and I didn't feel like waiting around for the sun to move. Sue me). Even including the bits inside the hitbox. You should be standing on the border between Flank and Rear and taking only a step or two to move between them. That also makes it very easy to move with the target if it turns. You won't always be able to hit them, but a few misses aren't going to shatter your DPS if you're playing well otherwise (and True North just got a nice CD reduction).

That's the point. You try to move as little as possible to do your positionals as is what would not having them really do? And how is taking them away dumbing thing things down? As is I flick the control stick left or right once or twice a rotation. It doesn't make the fight more or less difficult. And like the OP said. SE is designing fights where positionals are at times impossible. So much so that they upped MNK dps when not doing them and lowered True North's cool down. Removal of positionals might mean more interesting and more cinematic fights since they don't have to take positional up time into account for the fight. If they do that at all currently.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

That's the point. You try to move as little as possible to do your positionals as is what would not having them really do? And how is taking them away dumbing thing things down? As is I flick the control stick left or right once or twice a rotation. It doesn't make the fight more or less difficult. And like the OP said. SE is designing fights where positionals are at times impossible. So much so that they upped MNK dps when not doing them and lowered True North's cool down. Removal of positionals might mean more interesting and more cinematic fights since they don't have to take positional up time into account for the fight. If they do that at all currently.

They usually do that to bolster DPS of people who don't know/bother to do positionals. Not because they're shying away from doing fights that don't allow positionals (although they might be doing this now, because of said people). Same thing with DRG in the past.

[Fyce]

I don't understand the hate for positionals. Is it because people think they have to run around a lot to reach the Rear and the Flank? Honestly you're not supposed to be moving very much more than someone just standing around. Let's make a diagram, yes?



There. Everything yellow is the Rear. Everything blue is the Flank (it's early morning so it's not as blue as it should be and I didn't feel like waiting around for the sun to move. Sue me). Even including the bits inside the hitbox. You should be standing on the border between Flank and Rear and taking only a step or two to move between them. That also makes it very easy to move with the target if it turns. You won't always be able to hit them, but a few misses aren't going to shatter your DPS if you're playing well otherwise (and True North just got a nice CD reduction).

Why do you assume that people not liking positionals have a comprehension issue? I think everyone speaking about it in this thread knows how it works.
If someone doesn't like eating broccolis, explaining them what broccolis are won't suddenly make them like it.

Besides, your picture shows a target dummy that never moves. This is very different in actual combat when bosses spin faster that freaking beyblades.

[ElHeggunte]

Why do you assume that people not liking positionals have a comprehension issue? I think everyone speaking about it in this thread knows how it works.
If someone doesn't like eating broccolis, explaining them what broccolis are won't suddenly make them like it.

Besides, your picture shows a target dummy that never moves. This is very different in actual combat when bosses spin faster that freaking beyblades.

I'm not making a blanket assumption about anything. I'm asking a question, not making a statement. Now my question is based on what I've personally seen people lamenting about positionals on the forums and how I've seen people play in-game, but that's it. Maybe some of the posters in this thread do indeed know how it works, but I can't tell because they haven't actually said why they don't like it. Hence my question because I'm legitimately curious.

Fair enough that the target dummy doesn't move (which is an odd contention because the point of the image and text is to illustrate how easy it is to adjust to a spinning target while still landing most of your positionals and not having to run two miles around the target's entire hitbox every time it moves), but most mobs in the game don't move that much anyway outside of brief phases or specific periodic attacks. Sometimes you might not hit your position because you have to avoid an AoE, but that's not an issue unique to melee or positionals. However, if the mob is constantly "spinning faster than a beyblade" to the point where you can't land most of your attacks properly, that's an issue with your tank. Give him five across the eyes and tell him to sit still and celebrate the fact that most tanks do a pretty good job of holding mobs in one place.

[Arkdra]

Maybe some of the posters in this thread do indeed know how it works, but I can't tell because they haven't actually said why they don't like it. Hence my question because I'm legitimately curious.

So I hate monk. Second worst class in the game to play imo, only beaten out by blm. And the reason I hate it so much is that it is the posterchild of melee dps problems, 2/3's of which are positional related.

1. Positionals are garbage whenever you don't have a tank around.
2. Positionals are garbage when you have a bad tank around.
3. Ramp up time, but it's unrelated to positionals, mostly just stuck it here for the curious.

Since I main Sam, if I end up doing something sync'd where I don't have a kenki gauge, I don't really miss not having to bother to move to be honest. I played WoW for years before this game as classes without any positioning requirement and it was still fun. Do I really want them to be removed? Eh not really, but I am tepidly more for cutting them than I am for keeping them just because it doesn't affect my personal play experience but it might make randos in dungeons less terrible 5% of the time and make my life less miserable the once in a blue moon I get some nerd tank who parks the enemies butt in a fire.

[ElHeggunte]

So I hate monk. Second worst class in the game to play imo, only beaten out by blm. And the reason I hate it so much is that it is the posterchild of melee dps problems, 2/3's of which are positional related.

1. Positionals are garbage whenever you don't have a tank around.
2. Positionals are garbage when you have a bad tank around.
3. Ramp up time, but it's unrelated to positionals, mostly just stuck it here for the curious.

Since I main Sam, if I end up doing something sync'd where I don't have a kenki gauge, I don't really miss not having to bother to move to be honest. I played WoW for years before this game as classes without any positioning requirement and it was still fun. Do I really want them to be removed? Eh not really, but I am tepidly more for cutting them than I am for keeping them just because it doesn't affect my personal play experience but it might make randos in dungeons less terrible 5% of the time and make my life less miserable the once in a blue moon I get some nerd tank who parks the enemies butt in a fire.

That's the kind of detailed answer I was looking for, thank you.

[SamsaraLotusx]

no. what they need to do is make this clear as day that its extra dps not the normal. don't make it so you need to hit this can be good as well. but if they take all the things in there what be the point in more that 1 tank / healer / 2 dps?
they take tp and mana out as it is for 5.0

[Sandpark]

Given the above, I don't think removing positionals would make the those jobs "boring" because:

1) Hard fights are mechanic heavy and either make it nearly impossible to maintain full uptime + positionals anyway OR remove the need for them entirely given the nature of the boss.
2) You don't even effectively use them half the time when soloing.
3) They are removed from content where it doesn't even matter anyway.

The benefit of having them is:

1) Making a job slightly harder / more in-depth to play.
2) Allowing a distinction between bad, good, great players (which I think they were trying to get away from anyway, thus the changes)

1. It's supposed to be impossible at times, otherwise what's the point of positionals? It's so really good players can have a means to perform at a job better than someone else when available.
2. Half the time is ok, as long as not never.
3. No comment
4. This combat system is bare bones as is, I like depth when applicable.
5. The changes to Monk are so it is not as bad a disparity. Otherwise they would have removed them completely.

You could make this argument in other areas as well.
1. Why does X job have better AoE?
2. Why does X job have a good self cure and my job does not, I like soloing too?
3. Why does Warrior have to aim Overpower and Dark does not have to aim Unleash?

When you break it down this is really a dislike because X job has to do it to be great while Y job does not. If that is the real argument then maybe they could devise a system where every job can and should take advantage of positionals instead of just some?

How about a global system that can add depth to all jobs depending on situations. Passives that are accounted for depending on positions and circumstances. Certain offline Final Fantasies have these. I will say take a page from XIII for this game. But pseudo fit it to fit the theme of this game. I will list the skill then why it makes you want to play better for bonuses below each skill.

Passives depending on circumstance:

Blindside- Deals critical damage with any damage skill executed from behind.
Encourages all jobs to execute damage skills from behind.
Pincer Attack- All damage skills executed from sides lower resistance to your specified weapon/magic type for 12 seconds.
Encourages all jobs to execute damage skills from the side.
Vigor- Boost damage of auto attacks when your HP is high, effect diminishes as your HP lowers.
Damage uptick remains higher when you avoid damage.
Chain Attack- Increases Limit Break accrual when multiple players target the same enemy.
This one rewards you for targeting the same focused enemy when multiple enemies exist.
Faultsiphon- Slightly charge TP/MP gauge when attacking a target with status ailments.
Encourages you to hit specific enemies with status ailments to manage resources better.
Lifesiphon- Restores 200 HP upon dealing the killing blow to an enemy.
Encourages you to finish an enemy almost dead first.
Deathblow- Kills any normal enemy in one blow if attacked with a skill while stunned.
Encourages you to take advantage of stunned enemies.
Brittle- Player is inflicted with a severe defense down penalty when attacked by 5 or more enemies at once.
Encourage you to fight groups of enemies and not zones of enemies, could allow for harder hitting/dangerous standard enemies.

Those are some, could get really fancy especially if a stagger system was a thing but not going to go into detail because this is just a thought and none likely to happen. If I had my wish combos and selfish rotations would be pruned down replaced with less skills but more party synergy or taking advantage of situations, perhaps a skill chain system, aka comboing skills with yourself or others in no particular order but the depth is the combinations/variations you do.

[Jopo-Gray]

Be careful what you wish for, removing melee positionals would destroy the skill ceiling. You miss 10-20 out of 70 positionals (on a trial....) and want them all removed? I have a feeling that's not actually the reason you want them removed. Hitting positionals is the hardest and most rewarding part about playing melee dps. If I could think of one way to turn melee dps from challenging to braindead this would be number one on the list.

I've never felt compelled to post on this forum before (at least as far as I can remember) but (I'd hope) this would piss a lot of people off who care and understand how much gameplay value having positionals adds. I and many others went through the effort of learning how to deal with positionals for different fights, taking them all out would remove something so rewarding/ challenging while making the class boring to the people who learned how to do positionals before. Case in point o6s.

Not like anyone will care but the day they remove positionals is the day I quit this game. I love raiding in this game and especially on Monk, giving up positionals just so others have an easier time picking the class up is so backwards. Be careful what you wish for. The same thing happened to Warrior, they improved the job in 4.1 only to give in to the small outcry that the class was too punishing. Only to now have everyone complain that the class is now braindead (which I hold the opinion of also). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if SE did this positional thing though, sadly. I feel all the opinions against positionals come from a background of total ignorance by taking something like this for granted.