Should they remove positionals at this point?

[Kaonis]

They have been slowly edging positionals out over the years with the addition of True North and constantly lowering the penalty for a missed positional. They really should just finish the job as positionals are a relic of a different game. As a melee DPS is just gets frustrating all the times where you have no True North ready and need to do mechanics but can't (or can't safely) do positionals at no fault of your own. Speaking nothing of all the enemies that regularly and frequently turn to lob an attack on the group making you have to learn the timing and hoping you can anticipate where you need to be for a modest damage increase every time it occurs.

Other games have managed to make compelling melee gameplay without an over-reliance on having to dance about an enemy to edge out your damage. Besides melee already have the trouble of uptime to deal with.

[AxlStream]

The most popular job right now from what I’ve seen is Bard, followed closed by Red Mage. I think it’s telling that the most popular DPS jobs are the ones that have no positional requirements whatsoever and simple, easy rotations (Bard technically doesn’t even have a standard rotation).

I think that if melee didn’t have positional, the gap between ranged and melee would become smaller.

You wot? Its more like these jobs are really easy to squeeze out DPS out of and are safe. Unlike melee who will have to dodge mechanics most of the time which sacrifices uptime.

[Kallera]

You wot? Its more like these jobs are really easy to squeeze out DPS out of and are safe. Unlike melee who will have to dodge mechanics most of the time which sacrifices uptime.

Yes...and positionals only makes this harder.

[AxlStream]

Yes...and positionals only makes this harder.

Oh please. It's easy as long as you pay attention. Positionals are the only way to currently distinguish high tier DPS players.

[Kaonis]

Oh please. It's easy as long as you pay attention. Positionals are the only way to currently distinguish high tier DPS players.

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

There is a ton of far more interesting ways for a DPS to squeeze out their DPS. Positionals are just one way that doesn't mesh well with most of the fight designs and depending on the fight you can miss out on the positional damage at no fault of your own.

[Nora_of_Mira]

Positionals are just one way that doesn't mesh well with most of the fight designs and depending on the fight you can miss out on the positional damage at no fault of your own.

IMO, that's why I think they reduced the penalty for missing your positional and why they reduced the CD for True North (LONG OVERDUE BTW). As for "it doesnt mesh well", I mean, thats really fight dependent but no fight so far has felt unfair in positionals. Even in o11s, you have time to hit positionals during starboard/larboard. I find o12s extremely punishing bc so many mechanics box you into these immovable pockets of safety....but I guess that's why its the toughest fight of the raid?

[mosaicex]

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

Yes, uptime AND optimal rotation have always been the biggest factor in doing decent DPS.
YET
YET people in this thread act like missing few positionals during mechanic wombo combo and such will somehow murder their DPS. I mean, if it was pre-2.4/3.0 era DRG like I've mentioned earlier then they would have a point, but that's not the case anymore.
I suspect some of them had been called out for poor performance (due to aforementioned factors) but decided to blame it all on positionals.

There is a ton of far more interesting ways for a DPS to squeeze out their DPS.

Name some, I've yet to see anyone bringing up anything noteworthy in this thread to compensate for removal of positionals.
It's always 'UHH I don't like positionals, dev should just delete it!' 'Positionals aren't hard at all! I JUST have 'difficulty' doing them during certain part of the fight.', and my favorite 'There are better ways! (proceed to not name any)'

If they don't like positionals then there are 5 other jobs for them to move to (actually casters have to deal with position too, but positioning instead of positional. Range physical DPS can move freely but often have to deal with more mechanics due to it).
Every jobs in this game have upsides and downsides, but no, people want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Vaer]

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

There are mechanics that force casters to move, and they lose 100+ potency for every GCD missed (gets pretty bad on BLM which is why they get more movement utility, smn might be the only exception but they have more stuff to keep track off), while melee lose 20-60 per GCD on a positional loss if they can still hit the boss. Creative use of utility (just like True North for melees, for casters Swiftcast, Manipulation, Dual/Triplecast etc) to keep their rotation going when they have to move.

Seiryu is mentioned but the in/out and left/right (requires slidecasting/timed casts to keep rotation going without getting smashed) is annoying for casters, too - while melee might miss out on one of two positionals with no True North but can still hit it. Actually the warp to the furthest person is supposed to punish casters as well. In first is supposed to benefit melee, and Out first is supposed to benefit casters. Coursing River pretty much ruins everyone unless a caster has utility up, and you can arms' or surecast slappy hands knockback for one or two extra GCDs.

But you say, hey bards and machinists can keep moving and shoot: currently they take a damage loss and are reliant on other jobs for their damage ceiling (dragoon, scholar really helps brd), no knockback immunities and harder time managing enmity.

The thing I will agree with is relying on the tank to not spin the boss and position properly is kinda meh but other dps jobs have their own drawbacks to it as well.

Usually if there is a lot of movement the DPS check is set very low (SeiryuEX has a light one) anyway to make up for it.

[Brightamethyst]

I think the biggest issue with positionals is a design philosophy one. The current system is designed to punish you for screwing up but there are no rewards for doing a good job. That's not fun for most people.

[CorbinDallas]

I think the biggest issue with positionals is a design philosophy one. The current system is designed to punish you for screwing up but there are no rewards for doing a good job. That's not fun for most people.

The reward is more damage though? For crying out loud they just buffed the base potency of a load of monk skills to close the gap, making it even easier to do competitive levels of damage.