SCH needs some nerfs

[Erakir]

Regarding Scholar's personal DPS... well. Because of the aforementioned opportunity cost of Indomitability, Scholar actually ends up doing less damage than both of the other healers when playing optimally. The damage calculations you are probably looking at are attacks on Striking Dummy, where Scholar can use all of their Aetherflow on Energy Drain. Along with the lack of Energy Drain, they lose Miasma II weaving opportunities. When they can't do this, their DPS takes a nosedive. In-content is much different for Scholar.

Eh? Doing less when playing optimally?

This whole thread has had examples of current savage content and healer damage numbers, both in highly optimized and sub-optimal play (Come join me down here, we just killed O11, woo!~). Are the 99% combined healer damage numbers suddenly sub-optimal play? Say whatever we want about kill times affecting DPS numbers so the healer DPS number isn't the only real factor, the end result is still a stronger raid group.

Don't get me wrong I completely agree that SCH loses out on striking dummy damage from not being able to ED 3x every 45s in a real raid environment, but from an extremely quick look at logs I'm seeing SCH right up there next to AST on combined healer damage rankings, flip flopping some per pull. As expected these scholars are using a LOT of ED and limiting their Indoms, excogs, etc, but if we're talking optimal play - well there's still a lot of EDs going out there so they're certainly able to use it a good bit.

As I'd go down the list I'd fully expect to see less EDs being used, but the numbers posted much earlier in the thread don't lie. Scholar pDPS is high across the board at all percentiles, despite losing EDs on sub optimal parses, which means that regardless of what SCH is losing in less optimal play, ASTs and WHMs are losing just as much if not more for whatever reasons in their groups. SCHs are certainly not doing less damage, else this thread wouldn't really exist. WHM loses far more of their DPS potential on the whole, because let's face it - WHM still has the highest single target solo damage on striking dummies. The reason why WHM loses so much of its potential has been discussed at length already.

Miasma 2's cost definitely gets less and less of an issue with refresh and double refresh - no other healer gets to take advantage of extra MP at all DPSwise like SCH gets to when it comes to damage. Miasma 2 damage is kind of a bonus since as far as I know, Square has not retuned the SSS dummy formulas since adding it back into the game, meaning SCH's potential DPS is higher than their calculations use...if they honestly use those numbers for tuning (The numbers on the SSS calculator online show SCH at 90% of WHM target DPS across the board for what's up there, though I don't see Alphascape). None of us can know the extent of which they use those numbers, though. I mean, we obviously factor them, but when it comes to who specifically is tuning the encounters with all their deadlines, honestly dunno.

I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just really not sure what you're getting at with that comment. Happy to hear any clarification!

I'd also argue that what you say about Indom is precisely why it's so powerful. Mmmm I can certainly agree that other abilities have less opportunity cost (Aetherflow and all) and can be used for wonderful effects, but it's simply its availability and versatility that shoot it up there. It's a very powerful tool that - I mean, I can kinda call it "icing on the cake" given everything the fairy does. I don't think it's THE reason, so I very much agree with you; the fairy is a far bigger deal overall. Indom is just really dang good at what it does and is ridiculously useful, even if it's the first to go as we get more and more optimal due to that opportunity cost. The 45s AF change and potency buff just make it even better at what it was designed for, even though we have ES now and a 60s Assize as well.

The fact that it's such a generally powerful ability and is used infrequently at top levels of play simply gives more credence to what you say with the fairy. SCH is as strong as it is without constant Indom, yet if they need it it's still there - it's kinda like Scholar is an expensive sports car AND comes with amazing insurance. The good drivers aren't gonna get into a wreck, but the less skilled ones still have it as an ace in the hole, and they have a lot of it. I'm always gonna be salty at Indom's kneejerk buff in early in SB cause it just honestly didn't need it, but what can ya do.

Regardless, as I mentioned a long time ago though, I pretty much agree and would really like to see Noct modified to better compete with SCH at what SCH does, in particular with things like modifying Synastry's function in Noct as well as thoughts of CU to better match Whispering Dawn. Or, as Ghish says, get a 4th healer and just draw the hard line of WHM/AST and SCH/DNC-or-Whatever and striking trying to make AST fit two kinda roles.

Edit: Since I've been gone from this thread the past week or two, it's had a lot of discussion and more in-depth analysis by various players. It's insightful and I agree with a bunch of what's been pointed out. Just wanted to thank those of you contributing, has remained pretty civil and informative.

[LiddyGhu]

Eh? Doing less when playing optimally?
Are the 99% combined healer damage numbers suddenly sub-optimal play?
Miasma 2's cost definitely gets less and less of an issue with refresh and double refresh - no other healer gets to take advantage of extra MP at all DPSwise like SCH gets to when it comes to damage.


I'd also argue that what you say about Indom is precisely why it's so powerful. Mmmm I can certainly agree that other abilities have less opportunity cost (Aetherflow and all) and can be used for wonderful effects, but it's simply its availability and versatility that shoot it up there. It's a very powerful tool that - I mean, I can kinda call it "icing on the cake" given everything the fairy does.

The fact that it's such a generally powerful ability and is used infrequently at top levels of play simply gives more credence to what you say with the fairy. SCH is as strong as it is without constant Indom, yet if they need it it's still there

I, myself, am an example of '99% combined healer' play. I have 99% combined healer runs on all alphascape turns, and am #2 for SCH+WHM on O12S.
And I consider our play suboptimal (bolded the question). Still, it's not untrue for me to say that my WHM does almost 33% more DPS than I do, because all of my aetherflow is going to healing rather than Energy Drain.
Regarding Double Refresh, the devs have already talked about how they balance everything for 2x Melee, 1x ranged, and 1x caster. Given the developers' standard, I think this is out of discussion for balance. (Otherwise, we'd be talking about how OP Noct AST is and how it can solo heal every last bit of content in the game much easier than the other healers, including Ultimates.)
Scholar's GCDs are weaker than WHM's GCDs, so Scholar is the first player to heal in optimal play between the two classes. The dynamic changes in SCH+AST because AST's GCDs are weaker, but AST has more tools to prevent healers from having to spend GCDs at all compared to WHM, so the personal DPS of scholar ends up looking more "on par" with AST.

Calling scholar's indomitability "icing on the cake," is more like "really nice icing on a really MP inefficient cake."
The reason they have tools like Whispering Dawn and Indomitability is precisely because of how awful it is to cast Succor. It costs more than 1/8 of the MP bar after reaching better gear (low piety builds for higher DPS.) For an example, compare it to Cure III, who costs only 240 more MP and is 550 potency, versus Succor at 375 potency. The difference is massive.
Perhaps if they had a normal MP-efficient AoE heal like 'Helios,' or 'Medica,' then I would consider the idea of removing or nerfing indomitability, but as it stands, scholar suffers too harshly without it in the AoE healing category.

[LiddyGhu]

Eh? Doing less when playing optimally?

This whole thread has had examples of current savage content and healer damage numbers, both in highly optimized and sub-optimal play (Come join me down here, we just killed O11, woo!~). Are the 99% combined healer damage numbers suddenly sub-optimal play? Say whatever we want about kill times affecting DPS numbers so the healer DPS number isn't the only real factor, the end result is still a stronger raid group.

I forgot one other thing in my last post towards you. Scholar's Omega weapon, i405, is actually their BiS. WHM's BiS is the tomestone weapon at i400, because of the poor substats on the omega weapon. So this tier can also be a bit of a bad example for WHM's personal numbers.
I've seen some builds for AST which use the i400 weapon as well, but it comes with less piety than the omega weapon rather than no piety, so I'm not sure I agree with those builds personally.

I don't necessarily believe Whispering Dawn is too OP simply because Eos isn't used at all in the top end environments because Earthly Star does it's job. Back in HW Eos was meta because Earthly Star didn't exist and Whispering Dawn saved more DPS from healers than Fey Wind gave.

Interesting. I don't heal with an AST, so I didn't know WD wasn't being used in favour of Fey Wind right now.

The problem with the fairy comes down to Embrace honestly. Having a passive regen (that's stronger than ASP Benefic/Regen) that lasts throughout the fight and costs 0 resources is laughable because single target damage is the main source of incoming damage in this game. You have AoEs but those are covered with the large abundant of AoE heals each healer has. Where the only free single target heals we have in the game are Embrace, Fey Union, Essential Dignity, Tetra and Benediction. Every skill in that list is limited aside from Embrace which heals constantly for 5k/8k crit or 8k/11k Crit under Rouse.

Embrace is the reason you can get through O9-O11 with 0 single target heals and only have to cast 3 ASP B in O12S. And either needs an obvious nerf or another job needs to have a similar effect like maybe DNC. In my opinion I think it would be good to tag some MP value on Embrace making it cost 100-200 per cast and taking the auto heal function off when on Obey. This would make it so that healers at a low skill level are still able to utilize her by leaving them on auto as they won't be DPSing much so they won't run into MP issues. But at the higher levels you would be picking and choosing where to heal as MP is a lot more limited.

I agree that Embrace is a problem. But I don't like the idea of having players constantly forced to micro the pet. I'd rather see the fairy act more akin to the PvP version of herself. Still technically automatic, but just adds a little but on top to whatever heals you give out while she's summoned. Or remove embrace entirely and keep Fey Union as the major fairy-healing option.
Having the MP cost on it would drive me absolutely insane to see a scholar in a pug. (Welcome to "get out of my party.")

[Ftail]

Indom is just really dang good at what it does and is ridiculously useful, even if it's the first to go as we get more and more optimal due to that opportunity cost. The 45s AF change and potency buff just make it even better at what it was designed for, even though we have ES now and a 60s Assize as well.

The fact that it's such a generally powerful ability and is used infrequently at top levels of play simply gives more credence to what you say with the fairy. SCH is as strong as it is without constant Indom, yet if they need it it's still there. I'm always gonna be salty at Indom's kneejerk buff in early in SB cause it just honestly didn't need it, but what can ya do.

First let me start by saying that WHM needs changes to be competitive in high end raiding.

Indom can only be casted a single time once every 30 seconds. The fact AF is 45s doesn't change that. It's an amazing spell, that can be weaved in oGCD but if you are in a learning party with a lot of people making mistakes you'll soon be finding yourself using Succor the only non CD related heals available to SCH. I haven't forgot about Whispering Dawn, but that's on a 1min CD and isn't great if you need big heals NOW. If the group wipes because the cohealer died, and the SCH isn't able to throw out sustained burst healing like a WHM can, honestly the rest of the party is to blame for failing mechanics. But, I still get salty that WHM has Cure III, Plenary Indulgence, Medica II, Medica (no shields, so no having to worry about casting multiple succors if Emergency Tactics is Down), Asylum, Assize options for AOE healing.

SCH excels in groups that do the mechanics well and only have the rare occasional mistake. WHM feels like a special needs guardian with all the overkill healing options. In my opinion SCH doesn't need any nerfs, WHM just needs to be nerfed & buffed at the same time. Let's turn Planary Indulgence into a DPS spell not a healing one (or a buff that would help both healing and DPS), then lets boost the potency on Cure III, make it 10y instead of 6y and put it on a 20 second timer. For good measure, let's add one more DoT to keep track of to help boost that DPS more. My final idea is to turn Fluid Aura into a small group buff say 3% Spell Speed & Weapon Skill Speed Increase for Rdps.

[Mansion]

then lets boost the potency on Cure III, make it 10y instead of 6y and put it on a 20 second timer. .

Do you want agro? Because that's how you get agro.

[Ftail]

Do you want agro? Because that's how you get agro.

Then don't overheal, and being unable to spam it helps out with aggro.

Edit: Also, I'm not talking about a crazy potency buff. Maybe just 50, maximum of 100.

[Mansion]

Then don't overheal, and being unable to spam it helps out with aggro.

Edit: Also, I'm not talking about a crazy potency buff. Maybe just 50, maximum of 100.

Well, it is true even without overhealing. In a scenario where Cure III is more viable than Medica II (God Kefka's combo of Heartless Angel followed by Ultima upsurge for instance) ; you are healing with no overheal. Yet you give 25K-30K heal 8 times. In the beginning of a fight when agro has not been built properly yet, you will generate massive amounts of agro for sure. Buffing the potency of Cure III would make it worse. And that's just one special case, most of the time Medica II / Asylum is enough to heal party members. Even with a longer recast timer, if you can't deal with the agro yourself it's no use.

Don't forget WHM has no agro reduction abilities in its kit, compared to AST sects and SCH's split with its fairy (and overall healing design). You only rely on Lucid Dreaming, and its an agro cut, not a reduction of agro generation. I would actually get Cure III removed, it's too clunky to use and almost useless in the current setting of raid healing. But I agree that WHM would have needed some buffs somehow.

[Ftail]

Well, it is true even without overhealing. In a scenario where Cure III is more viable than Medica II (God Kefka's combo of Heartless Angel followed by Ultima upsurge for instance) ; you are healing with no overheal. Yet you give 25K-30K heal 8 times. In the beginning of a fight when agro has not been built properly yet, you will generate massive amounts of agro for sure. Buffing the potency of Cure III would make it worse. And that's just one special case, most of the time Medica II / Asylum is enough to heal party members. Even with a longer recast timer, if you can't deal with the agro yourself it's no use.

Don't forget WHM has no agro reduction abilities in its kit, compared to AST sects and SCH's split with its fairy (and overall healing design). You only rely on Lucid Dreaming, and its an agro cut, not a reduction of agro generation. I would actually get Cure III removed, it's too clunky to use and almost useless in the current setting of raid healing. But I agree that WHM would have needed some buffs somehow.

I can live with not buffing Cure III then, let's just put it behind a timer then when we buff WHM DPS heavily. I disagree with it being useless, it's amazing when everyone is at 1HP for those mechanics and everyone is stacked up. When I'm playing SCH, I can just completely ignore using an indom and blow it on an energy drain without stopping to help heal.

[Satarn]

When I'm playing SCH, I can just completely ignore using an indom and blow it on an energy drain without stopping to help heal.

This actually illustrates pretty well why Cure III is such a joke. Doing this you(SCH) gain 150 potency, while the WHM loses an entire gcd that could've been used on Stone, which is 250 potency. That's a 100 potency worth of rDPS loss, for a measly 50 more potency worth of healing. Not to mention you don't need to "stop" for Indom - you just weave it while using one of your 3 instant cast damage options, all can be done on the run without a need for the party to stack.