SCH needs some nerfs

[Erakir]

Hoo boy, I type too much and say too little -
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Heya Liddy - I appreciate the responses!

I didn't see your name looking around the few parses I did, but I see it now; your views at this level of optimization are appreciated and I better understand what you're getting at now. I didn't actually look at many WHM+SCH logs specifically. As you'd expect I'm certainly not at that level of optimization. As I peruse a simple few of the various WHM SCH logs up there, the differences in damage between the healers is obvious based on who's doing more of the healing. This becomes more and more apparent as I go through multiple fights and not just Final Omega. I see some roughly equal, I see yours with your cohealer WHM above, and I see some with the scholar still ahead. They're all doing pretty dang well as far as I can tell from down here.

Given, I am giving extremely quick glances at only a few of these logs. I'm not going to analyze them in depth right now, nor do I really have the know-how about all the specific fight timings for such runs since, well, we do nothing of the sort. When it comes to this kind of optimization, I have to bow to those of you executing it, for you have gone through all the numbers and performed as best you can to get up there. Regardless I do see differences in how they're being played simply by the raw number differences. While we could talk - or rather, I'd be mostly listening - about what would go into literal perfectly optimized play to maximize every number of the healers, I don't think it's a particularly....useful thing to do.

In regards to refresh (I only mention double because I see it in a lot of the parses up there) the point still stands that SCH is the only healer capable of converting excess MP to damage in some format with a potency that high and also allowing mobility and weaving. I do believe that's a factor that must be considered, and I tend to only bring it up since SSS calculations haven't changed since the skill was brought back into the game and it certainly is an option mid-raid to help SCH's maintain their SSS levels. I mean, if you're talking balance and optimization at 99+ where I'm seeing these double refresh comps...then it certainly becomes a factor specifically for that, whether the developers are going to balance around it to begin with. Their intended balance doesn't stop players from immediately finding what best suits progression and they need to react if anything gets stupidly out of whack - not that it really is for general savage raiders like myself.

I hear you that when going for kills like that, well yea, a WHM GCD spend on damage is generally gonna be more than a SCH one pending we're talking things like stone vs broil. It's simply potencies, which leads to exactly what you're saying; lean the most on the SCH toolkit to live as possible to allow said WHM to actually hit their damage potential. It just doesn't feel like the reward is there for the effort it seemingly takes for the majority of the playerbase attempting savage to actually....get there (let alone the less raid damage and all). I get you too with succor's cost making more of a case for indom and WD, but I'd still have to disagree on a purely philosophical level. When I see 15-20 casts of Miasma II in standard (1 ranged) comps, a skill that was added back into the game as an AoE tool to help SCHs not feel as hurt by Bane's gradual sadness since ARR, I....I can't care much about the cost of succor when considering Cure III's limitations that must be played around by a group. After all, it's still stronger than Medica, as is Aspected Helios on a purely potency basis - and across the board, there's still the shield aspect of it to be considered, on the flipside of not being able to spam it or having to burn ET + animation to do so. And of course, we could talk about PI being latched onto medica as well if we really wanted to with all of the stipulations that come with that discussion. Then there's the whole thing of more EDs being the cause of being able to get away with more Miasma IIs and how you'd have less MP as you go down the ladder with more spent on things like lustrate, gosh could go on forever.

But we both know how frivolous it is to talk about skills in a vacuum like this. There's tons of factors from group to group and it's hard enough to try and talk about them at one level of play, let alone everywhere, let alone without considering fight by fight stuff. Ultimately Indom was added to the game to help shore up SCH's lack of AoE options in HW, and it did its job then with a 60s Aetherflow CD. I don't think I'm ever going to be convinced that it needed to go to 500 potency even though we got ES, cheaper Cure 3, and other things across the healers...but all we can do is speculate on how everything would have turned out with it at 400 all expansion. Why, perhaps, wasn't Emergency Tactics buffed instead? Yeah, it's a button not a lot of people like hitting due to its animation, but hey, might as well take a button not really loved and give it some attention rather than taking a button everyone's already pressing and tell em pressing it is even better now. Doesn't matter though, what's done is done and indom is 500, everyone's used to it, and they've designed future content around that.

I'm just kinda talking in circles though, cause I think we don't disagree about the bigger points surrounding all of these specifics and what can/should be done regarding the current state of things.

I care far more about the overall trend of players across the entire spectrum than I do at the highest levels, and that's where I'm still seeing the trend of WHM doing less damage than alternatives as a whole and all the reasons why (Also thanks about the weapon difference; that's a clear factor at the high end of things although I do not know offhand what that 5ilvl roughly translates to in terms of output. I do know I've grumbled several times looking at that cane~). As I've mentioned before in other threads, balance should be striven for from the bottom up. If a job is getting kicked out of DF, for heaven's sake that comes first, all the way up to 24m raids, normal raids, extreme trials, savage, and then....arguably ultimate - things have to be in a really good state across the whole game and the developers are gonna need a lot of free time for a hefty amount of consideration towards that. When the developers are looking at what's optimal or just good, I don't think they're going to be giving too much of a look towards, quite simply, the level you and Jinzhu play at and how hard you push everything to its maximum.

There's a lot you say that I agree with - for instance, I've long disliked Assize being tied to MP return as it forces one to use it on CD or very close to, else consider the damage and MP wasted, but nobody wants to hits a big instant heal for 100% overheal just because of how things line up. I like a lot of your suggestions. I can't get everything I want into words here, but I'm trying to say that I might have some philosophical differences on how healing should be designed or changed, and I'm sure you could probably point out a lot of flaws with some of the things I've mentioned - but overall I do very much appreciate your thoughts and the viewpoint they come from <3

Edit: Bwah I need to sleep~

[Limonia]

Sometimes I think they should just remove Energy Drain from Aetherflow (or remove it completely because it's an ACN ability anyway and put the MP on something else) and keep that only for healing.
I got too many SCH that only ever use their Aetherflow stacks for Energy Drain and nothing else because they would lose dps and MP if they did. If people are so low that Indomitability is truly needed and they still refuse to use it instead of Energy Drain there's something wrong. It is really great that they dps a lot but if they completely refuse to heal becaue of that they could also just go as DPS if everything the party gets is Selene's Embrace.
I'm also not talking about high-end speedruns here where every action is perfectly laid out beforehand but content where people could still mess up. I also personally believe casual or midcore content should not be neglected completely.

What do you as "experts" think about that? I only know that it's annoying to get a SCH as co-healer who refuses to heal and then uses Selene in content where getting heals would be nice, like in learning or casual farm parties. Do yo think content like that should be considered or should everything only be balanced around perfect play?

[LiddyGhu]

Sometimes I think they should just remove Energy Drain from Aetherflow (or remove it completely because it's an ACN ability anyway and put the MP on something else) and keep that only for healing.
I got too many SCH that only ever use their Aetherflow stacks for Energy Drain and nothing else because they would lose dps and MP if they did. If people are so low that Indomitability is truly needed and they still refuse to use it instead of Energy Drain there's something wrong. It is really great that they dps a lot but if they completely refuse to heal becaue of that they could also just go as DPS if everything the party gets is Selene's Embrace.
I'm also not talking about high-end speedruns here where every action is perfectly laid out beforehand but content where people could still mess up. I also personally believe casual or midcore content should not be neglected completely.

What do you as "experts" think about that? I only know that it's annoying to get a SCH as co-healer who refuses to heal and then uses Selene in content where getting heals would be nice, like in learning or casual farm parties. Do yo think content like that should be considered or should everything only be balanced around perfect play?

I don't think you can viably balance a class around players who don't play the class/ don't care about performing well with the class.
You're going to get annoying greedy healers in any content you ever do, regardless of job. I'm aware that it's more often than not scholars who do this, but even if you removed energy drain, let's face it, those players probably still wouldn't heal.

[Erakir]

What do you as "experts" think about that? I only know that it's annoying to get a SCH as co-healer who refuses to heal and then uses Selene in content where getting heals would be nice, like in learning or casual farm parties. Do yo think content like that should be considered or should everything only be balanced around perfect play?

Honestly I haven't seen any of the speedrunners in this thread suggest that we only look at that tip top of the iceberg. More that for non-savage content, every job is already more than capable and none of them have a ridiculous skill check to perform well enough to clear that content.

The mindset you're talking about isn't because of Energy Drain, but it certainly helps reinforce it in those with that mindset. I can't stand the type of healer who queues up for DF content, sees someone take extra damage and just glares because "I shouldn't HAVE to heal that" then proceeds to, you know - not heal them because it's not optimal. Believe me, I get it, it doesn't feel great to have to cast things you know are the things you want to avoid casting. I don't love when I have to Cure 2 spam for 10 seconds, especially when another healer says they could help but they'd lose malefic casts. I don't care what you lose, the tanks are dying right now for whatever reason. When I'm in content, I'm doing whatever I can to help clear it, and I'd say the majority of people I come across share that mindset. Yea, I'm gonna grumble at raising people non-stop in a 24m, but I *am* going to raise them if it's a net benefit.

In theory? I wouldn't mind some sort of change for SCH to push it more towards AF abilities only being for healing/mitigation - but you'd also have to redo/remove Bane on top of ED to do that, and yeah it'd of course come with rethinking MP restoration and potential damage tuning. At the same time I don't particularly mind it, either, and I'd still come across ASTs who stop healing someone because they didn't stand in the first Earthly Star in a trial roulette. Having a way to dump AF charges in a meaningful way that you forgot to use is likely something I'd keep in the game, though there are more options than direct damage.

On the plus side, every time you get a 'healer' like that you get to become better at solo healing and carrying DF parties through fights they had no right clearing~ Ah, Shinryu memories in 4.0.

[Limonia]

In theory? I wouldn't mind some sort of change for SCH to push it more towards AF abilities only being for healing/mitigation - but you'd also have to redo/remove Bane on top of ED to do that, and yeah it'd of course come with rethinking MP restoration and potential damage tuning. At the same time I don't particularly mind it, either, and I'd still come across ASTs who stop healing someone because they didn't stand in the first Earthly Star in a trial roulette. Having a way to dump AF charges in a meaningful way that you forgot to use is likely something I'd keep in the game, though there are more options than direct damage.

Ah, yes, I forgot about Bane. They could just make it independent from AF though and give it a longer cooldown. And the damage loss from not having Energy Drain would just make WHM and AST damage better in comparison. I guess you would need to remove Lord of Crowns from AST then as well... I personally wouldn't mind that though. As nice as it is to do more damage after getting an unwanted card, it's like with Energy Drain. Lady of Crowns just gets used on themselves at 100% HP to make space for Lord anyway. ;D
I would actually like it if they removed the damage from Assize and Earthly Star as well and put it somewhere else. I think because we already try to not cast any GCD heals, dpsing with oGCDs shouldn't come at the cost of losing healing oGCDs for it. I just seem to have seen too many healers trying to play like in parse runs in casual content with new players, but I digress...

On the plus side, every time you get a 'healer' like that you get to become better at solo healing and carrying DF parties through fights they had no right clearing~

But I'm having sooo bad luck with that. Really, EVERY time I get a full-dps co-healer it's in a party with multiple (new) players that don't know the mechanics (yet). Usually I'm lucky though and after like 3 wipes they finally start helping raising and healing a little. There's only so much I can do alone if people fail mechanics a lot.

[Grimoire-M]

Regarding Energy Drain on SCH, I don't think it needs much of a change to work without dealing damage. Hell I'd like a change on SMN that gave them an ability they could use without needing an enemy around too, and ED is an ideal button to replace on them as well. I think keeping the MP restoration part of it would be fine for SCH. Maybe have it improve your next spell's potency as well and call it Focus, perhaps?

Though for SMN in particular it would need to be on par with Fester to be worth using, so SCH and SMN would likely need to diverge from that one ability into their own versions.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

Regarding Energy Drain on SCH, I don't think it needs much of a change to work without dealing damage. Hell I'd like a change on SMN that gave them an ability they could use without needing an enemy around too, and ED is an ideal button to replace on them as well. I think keeping the MP restoration part of it would be fine for SCH. Maybe have it improve your next spell's potency as well and call it Focus, perhaps?

Though for SMN in particular it would need to be on par with Fester to be worth using, so SCH and SMN would likely need to diverge from that one ability into their own versions.

The problem with that, what do you replace ED with? To new archanists, what do you do with your aether flow stacks until you get Fester (lvl 35) or the for scholar waiting to 45 with Sacred Soil. You would need a spell to replace it or Aetherflow stacks would be useless till 45 on a scholar and 35 on smn.

I know people are thinking of end game, but what about while you are leveling? What skill would you replace it with for archanists as they get aetherflow at level 6 so you'd be 19 or 29 levels without a use for the aetherflow stacks.

[Grimoire-M]

The problem with that, what do you replace ED with? To new archanists, what do you do with your aether flow stacks until you get Fester (lvl 35) or the for scholar waiting to 45 with Sacred Soil. You would need a spell to replace it or Aetherflow stacks would be useless till 45 on a scholar and 35 on smn.

I know people are thinking of end game, but what about while you are leveling? What skill would you replace it with for archanists as they get aetherflow at level 6 so you'd be 19 or 29 levels without a use for the aetherflow stacks.

I was thinking of Focus being the base ability truth be told. What I'd propose is something rather basic, like adding an additional 100 potency to your next Ruin spell, plus the current MP boost you already get from the current ED. This would then diverge via a trait gained at 30, allowing it to affect the next three Ruin spells for SMN, and allowing SCH to instead add a separate 100 flat healing potency to Physick or Adlo, without affecting the shield potency of the latter at all. It could later be improved to affect AoE spells too, possibly, though I'm hesitant to do that on either class given their AoE damage is already fine as it is. It could, however, add more healing potency to Succor in a similar manner. Just boosting the flat heal and not the shield. I'm just reluctant to even do that without a nerf to Indom itself.

[LiddyGhu]

and allowing SCH to instead add a separate 100 flat healing potency to Physick or Adlo, without affecting the shield potency of the latter at all.

Why would they not just use Lustrate instead? We get 6 times that value with a different button, along with it not being tied to a GCD spell.

It could later be improved to affect AoE spells too, possibly, though I'm hesitant to do that on either class given their AoE damage is already fine as it is. It could, however, add more healing potency to Succor in a similar manner. Just boosting the flat heal and not the shield. I'm just reluctant to even do that without a nerf to Indom itself.

They already have both Sacred Soil and Indom, and more than two sets of AoE damage almost never happens within 30 seconds (AND if it does, sacred soil will cover more than one of them). They basically already have this function available to them in a different way, but stronger than what you're saying.

I'm afraid you're missing the mark on what we should do about it, unless if your goal is to remove useful buttons and add useless ones.
In my opinion, Energy Drain would remain a fully functional button if they removed the Potency on it entirely, without completely reworking it otherwise.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

I was thinking of Focus being the base ability truth be told. What I'd propose is something rather basic, like adding an additional 100 potency to your next Ruin spell, plus the current MP boost you already get from the current ED. This would then diverge via a trait gained at 30, allowing it to affect the next three Ruin spells for SMN, and allowing SCH to instead add a separate 100 flat healing potency to Physick or Adlo, without affecting the shield potency of the latter at all. It could later be improved to affect AoE spells too, possibly, though I'm hesitant to do that on either class given their AoE damage is already fine as it is. It could, however, add more healing potency to Succor in a similar manner. Just boosting the flat heal and not the shield. I'm just reluctant to even do that without a nerf to Indom itself.

A complete re-work as a buff? While not a bad idea (especially for scholar), that would actually mean a total re-work on summoner as they need to use three aetherflow skills to unlock their cap abilities from both HW and (6 total) SB in deathflare and demi-bahamut after two uses of 3 stacks of aetherflow. While that may not be a bad thing, I wonder if SE would go for it. Aetherflow stacks are a key right now to the rotation on summoner.

That is is the problem with two jobs coming from archanist, to look at changing its skills you effect not one but both. Also if you have nothing that eats away aetherstacks until 30 with bane, they would then have to be put onto a timer like greased lightning on the monk. That would totally change both classes into much more complex forms of themselves.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, but looking through all effects is definitely something to do. If the classes become unplayable at lower levels, that is something we don't want for people leveling them. I'm in the camp of sch is fine as is, get whm and ast more in line with it is better than nerfing scholar. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if whm and ast were on par, not whm lagging behind so far in end game content.

I just hope I don't get booted from a party like at the start of SB for being whm due to how much was taken from whm's toolkit with Shadowbringers.