SCH needs some nerfs

[MoroMurasaki]

Welp, I think this is a good thread to come back from my vacation with.

I'm not going to say that there aren't problems in the relationship between WHM and AST, there are. If AST is sitting at 100% (a good place in balance) WHM is around 80%... but that difference is eclipsed by SCH being at 150%.

1. Chain Stratagem is consistent, strong and synergizes amazingly with the crit-meta.
2. Critlo/spreadlo are the strongest shields you can have and have only benefited from the role action changes in 4.4 - they can now be deployed off of a WAR with Convo and Minne on by a SCH using Largesse and neither of those classes sacrifices anything to do so.
3. Indom is perhaps the single best heal in the game. It costs almost nothing, is more flexible than ES by a mile and is instant.
4. Their pDPS is ridiculous by comparison and they have unlimited weaving opportunities with basically no need to clip.

Essentially the only time SCH is disadvantaged in any way is in prolonged AoE healing situations which honestly should be taken care of more by their regen-healer partner anyway.

This is not balance within the healer community. No one healer should provide the best pDPS and (more often than not) rDPS while also having such a flexible defensive kit that can easily be tweaked to handle almost any situation.

Thoughts?

[SWB]

Honestly I don't think scholar needs to he dumbed down. It's toolkit is very synergistic and it plays really well as a shielding pet healer.

They should strive to bring the other two healers up to scholars level, fix whm's petals and 70 skill, give them utility. Give astro it's own identity (as in lose sects) so white mage can shine.

And if they do change anything about scholar it has to be their fairy that heals on no mp and affords them all the gcds to dps.

[MoroMurasaki]

Honestly I don't think scholar needs to he dumbed down. It's toolkit is very synergistic and it plays really well as a shielding pet healer.

They should strive to bring the other two healers up to scholars level, fix whm's petals and 70 skill, give them utility. Give astro it's own identity (as in lose sects) so white mage can shine.

And if they do change anything about scholar it has to be their fairy that heals on no mp and affords them all the gcds to dps.

I'll pop back for more later but for now...

I didn't call for it to be dumbed down, they could easily adjust potencies to compensate without changing the fundamental playstyle of the class. This is, even if not intended to be so, a strawman.

As far as buffing the other healers to SCH's level all that accomplishes is a psuedo-nerf to high-end content and an even easier time in the rest of the game. We have already seen what circle buffs do, look at BRD and MCH at the end of 3.x. I don't want to imagine how easy Savage would become with every healer balanced to the current SCH.

AST sects don't alienate WHM - WHM's lack of any rDPS buff, group mitigation tool and having the lowest pDPS alienate WHM.

[Metsonm]

I agree that Scholar is pretty busted, but the reason the spotlight is on AST is because that's the spot WHM is gunning for. AST can fit in both, so will be more likely to push White Mage to the side. But this is the case precisely because Scholar is so good.

Even in the WHM/AST comparison bringing SCH down a peg or two (or ideally bringing the other 2 up) would benefit WHM more. It would allow AST, as shield healer, to more freely partner with WHM as regen healer.

I'll admit most of my time has been spent comparing WHM and AST, and so I haven't thought much about how Scholar could be reworked, and any changes I've put forward only enhance the problem (eg: giving Selene a stronger moveset to remove outdated skills). But it does seem the issue is that the fairies are too strong, and SCH's kit is tied to oGCD skills to facilitate fewer casts. Right now the fairies are a native 250 potency regen, so that could probably be cut a little. Even at 150 it's better than regen because it's free and native.

[Ghishlain]

An alternative to nerfing SCH is to also change the content design and make damage more randomized and spiky. It's unlikely to happen given S-E's perchance to mechanical dances, but if it does occur, the SCH kit will become indirectly less appealing.

Consider the fact the SCH kit is build completely around CD management. The last thing you want to do on SCH is use GCDs as an emergency heal tool because of how expensive their spells are compared to WHM or AST.

This kit style is completely synergistic with how content is designed - where players do the mechanical dance and have a healing answer to every tank and raid buster in the game. When SCH can plan out their CDs to a tee to every buster in the fight, it makes for an incredibly strong healer that has little weakness in that type of environment.

Outside of content design changing, I unfortunately feel the only way to see SCH fall out of its' meta spot is if it gets nerfed so hard that it basically becomes unplayable. The kit style works just too well with content design and any buffs to N.AST to try to usurp SCH's position has the adverse effect of also affecting D.AST more often than naught, making the gap between D.AST and WHM even further and just solidifying the AST/SCH composition even more.

[Duskane]

Yeah i doubt Ast/Sch will ever stop
Unless Cards and Sch get nerfed

At this rate WHM and what ever new healer just can't compete
One healer being a DPS loss kind of a problem

[Brightamethyst]

We tend to forget here on the boards where we like to have higher level discussions about endgame events, but these sorts of issues don't affect most players. The vast majority of players spend the vast majority of their time not raiding. WHM my be behind in the cutting edge progression meta, but it's perfectly fine in the rest of the game (relatively, lilies still suck no matter what.)

That said, I'd rather see WHM brought up than SCH and AST brought down. WHM has always been the "safe but boring" healer, but as a concept that doesn't play well in the current game design. They need a support gimmick (cards, faeries) rather just a "more heals" gimmick (lilies.) Maybe in 5.0 rework lilies into a party buff mechanic or something.

[Cyberserker]

Still? Scholars were OP when I left too and I've been gone for months.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

We tend to forget here on the boards where we like to have higher level discussions about endgame events, but these sorts of issues don't affect most players. The vast majority of players spend the vast majority of their time not raiding. WHM my be behind in the cutting edge progression meta, but it's perfectly fine in the rest of the game (relatively, lilies still suck no matter what.)

That said, I'd rather see WHM brought up than SCH and AST brought down. WHM has always been the "safe but boring" healer, but as a concept that doesn't play well in the current game design. They need a support gimmick (cards, faeries) rather just a "more heals" gimmick (lilies.) Maybe in 5.0 rework lilies into a party buff mechanic or something.

Quite frankly, healers are overpowered in this game. Bringing WHM is only make content even easier because of how fights are designed. The issue is the developers have a vision for how they intend healers to function which differs substantially from the actual metagame. We simply don't play the way they want hence why despite the removal of Cleric, Yoshida still prattled, telling players to stop expecting healer DPS. Unfortunately, White Mage is trapped in the tug-of-war between concept and execution. How does this effect casual players? Well, casual White Mages ever want to venture into harder content, they'll be bombarded by a meta scene that simply doesn't want them. It's highly discouraging to see static recruitment omitting your preferred job and high end players pointing out the endless flaws it has. Yes, yes, "everything is viable!" People don't care. And while there will always be a meta, each job needs to be competitive. That isn't the case for a lot of them.

Balancing around casual players is why the devs continue to struggle. The only thing that matters for job adjustment is the high end scene because these are the players taking the jobs to their limits. A perfect example of this flawed approach is Astro. I suspect the devs never realized just how much simply giving Malefic III an instant cast would impact their DPS. Why? Casual players are far more likely to not keep their GCD rolling or consistently double weave. It wasn't a problem because they weren't looking at the proper content to see it.

[Brightamethyst]

Quite frankly, healers are overpowered in this game.

Agreed, but that's a failure of game design, not class design. Nerfing SCH and AST wouldn't make WHM better, it would just make everyone equally bad.