SCH needs some nerfs

[Metsonm]

There's a difference between nerfing and breaking them over your knee, though. Using 4.0 SCH as an example of how it would go isn't really accurate as there are many other ways of changing them.

To be clear, I'm not saying nerfs are the only way to fix the balance issues, and buffs are always preferred, but the problem is a fundamental one with the kits.

We're far enough into the expansion where we may as well just wait for 5.0 and roll the dice again. I'm talking about it in a relative scale in the future tense. Such as when 5.0 rolls around make the native fairy healing slightly weaker to encourage an extra GCD being spent on healing here or there. Do it at a time when the class is being reworked anyway with the addition of new skills and people might not even notice.

Same for Dragoons and the like. Would taking away the pierce debuff be a nerf? Would lowering Trick Attack? Probably, but it would weaken their stranglehold on party slots a bit and if it's between expansions it won't even matter.

[CreinCrein]

I differ parse runs from feed runs. Parse runs are about mutual synergy leading to the highest damage output for each player. Speed runs are about pushing for the fastest kill time. They're similar, but differ as speed runs utilize different strategies that lead to lowered pdps but higher rdps in some cases, such as shield cheesing O11S's red fists and constant LB cheesing. Feed runs are an entirely different subject. Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Erakir]

Why are we so ultra focused on the tip top here, with this narrative of WHMs just not being in optimized groups at all?

Guys, forget the 99% for a moment. There would have to be SO MANY people who jumped from WHM to AST to push the entire chart for WHMs lower across the board. A ridiculous number. Hell, if anything all these amazing ASTs and SCHs at the top of the charts would in theory push the bottom ASTs/SCHs further down, as there's more high end competition.

And yet, the 25th percentile numbers have WHM in dead last for every fight going by that chart earlier. Except on o12 where the 25th percentile WHMs squeak by the 25th percentile ASTs. The gaps do close a bit on the low end of AST, where you'd probably see less ideal cards and more AST/WHM combos without chain strat (actually scratch that, we know how few WHM/ASTs are clearing O12 right now). Of course, scholars are still sitting high and pretty even on the bottom in these non-meta groups.

Quite frankly the number of raiders seriously going out there for parse/speedkills - and going out of their way to push meta for it instead of just doing the best they can with their static - is going to be kinda low relative to the total number of people raiding. Much lower than would be needed for this whole trend across the board. It's always been the case in every MMO I play. This shows that optimizing WHM for damage at all - no matter where you are in the charts or what sort of comp you're running - is more difficult / requires more catering to than other healer jobs.

Which is a problem. This is PART of the reason MCHs are having so many issues right now as well. Even under the assumption that a class can perform *on par* with personal numbers (which still leaves it behind since it offers no real raid benefit), you've got something that requires far more effort than the other options to attain the same results.

Or you can just say WHMs are worse players than ASTs and SCHs by default and....yeah have fun with that argument.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, looking at the 99% has its merits, but the balance across the entire spread of the playerbase matters first. When an issue shows up there consistently, it's far more important. Likewise if anyone was getting kicked from 24 mans or dungeons routinely for their job, that'd be an extremely bigger concern than anything in savage.

Double edit: And also while I'm here - not that anyone is doing this yet, but...don't try to ignore people under 50% as "bad players that shouldn't be thought about when it comes to balance." They totally should. This is still savage, and though the mechanics may be easy for a lot of people here, this is high end content in XIV and if you're clearing it you are not a bad player as far as the developers will see it. You're ahead of the curve.

[Connor]

Isn’t the low healing requirements of the overall game a barrier to balancing healers properly? When healers are balanced around dealing damage most of the time, it makes sense that one that literally was a DPS would have the easiest time of it.

On the other hand, the standard ‘pure healer’ type jobs (White Mage) don’t seem to do so well. They can do high DPS, but I don’t think that’s the idea behind a White Mage lol, hence why it tends to feel less impactful than Scholar / Astrologian who are supposed to be more support oriented.

You can argue that this doesn’t apply to Astrologian since it’s meant to be a low DPS heal/buff oriented support type healer, but I think the changes to stuff like lightspeed / Malefic III make it DPS enough to be desirable.

I think the devs see healers as having this weird balance because White Mage is the ‘pure healer’ whilst Scholar and Astrologian are the ‘support healers’. Of course this isn’t true, but I genuinely don’t think they take a healer’s damage dealing capabilities into account when considering how ‘balanced’ they are

[KDSilver]

I think the devs see healers as having this weird balance because White Mage is the ‘pure healer’ whilst Scholar and Astrologian are the ‘support healers’.

WHM could still be that "pure healer" with a very high personnal DPS (by a very significant margin) They have to rework some of its hGCD spell as well in that case, such as plenary for example, which duration is too short to have the best benefit from it except on really rare raid situation, asyulum and the fact that people has to be in it to get to HoT while Ast can directly put it on the party... maybe lowering some recast time or increase some potencies to match with the other healer gGCD potencies (which is a reason they are so powerful).

They could also adress the clipping WHM has with the same adjusment they made to ast with Stone being at 1.5s which could be a good start and reduce medica II cast time as well (this adjusment on AST looked to be adressed to nocturnal first, because of succor being at 2.5, but since any change is being made on ast whitout considering the sect, it was a small buff to diurnal as well, leaving medica II at 3s)

There are many things like this they slowly adjusted to scholar and ast (QoL) but forgot to do to WHM as well.

[Brightamethyst]

WHM could still be that "pure healer" with a very high personnal DPS (by a very significant margin)

That wouldn't really work either. There's a big difference between raiding and the entire rest of the game. If you give WHM enough personal DPS to compete with SCH/AST support in a savage raid setting it would be completely OP in solo and light party settings, which what the vast majority of players spend most of their time doing.

[Lastelli]

If you give WHM enough personal DPS to compete with SCH/AST support in a savage raid setting it would be completely OP in solo and light party settings

And why should people care about what happens in solo and 4-man content that can be easily cleared by smashing your head on the keyboard?

In case someone didn't notice, solo and 4-man content is already ridiculously unbalanced. Think about SMN/BLM aoe dps in dungeons or tanks' and healers' semi-immortality in solo content. Giving WHM more single target damage would hardly make things much worse.

[Neela]

And why should people care about what happens in solo and 4-man content that can be easily cleared by smashing your head on the keyboard?

oh you again hmm.. maybe because 80% of the playerbase don't even touch (hardcore) savage?... this elite talk is just bs.
like in the other thread... u can't just nerf Brds potecy based on fflogs/savage runs, cause if u do and look at their solo performance out of savage - they would be totally broken missing the Drg/Sch support.

lemme guess "who cares?"...

It doesn't matter? Why should people care?

You seem to be forgetting that people like us who post here are the minority. We like to get technical about the highest level content, but the fact is the vast majority of players never even set foot in a savage raid or EX primal, let alone clear them. You personally may not care, but most people don't give a damn about raiding and ONLY care about solo and light party play.

this this this...

[KDSilver]

That wouldn't really work either. There's a big difference between raiding and the entire rest of the game. If you give WHM enough personal DPS to compete with SCH/AST support in a savage raid setting it would be completely OP in solo and light party settings, which what the vast majority of players spend most of their time doing.

It really doesn't matter what the class can do solo and in dungeons honestly...
And increasing single target output will not make it OP either.
Where are you coming from

[Brightamethyst]

And why should people care about what happens in solo and 4-man content that can be easily cleared by smashing your head on the keyboard?

It really doesn't matter what the class can do solo and in dungeons honestly...

It doesn't matter? Why should people care?

You seem to be forgetting that people like us who post here are the minority. We like to get technical about the highest level content, but the fact is the vast majority of players never even set foot in a savage raid or EX primal, let alone clear them. You personally may not care, but most people don't give a damn about raiding and ONLY care about solo and light party play.