SCH needs some nerfs

[Exiled_Tonberry]

You really don’t know what you are talking about.. SCH broken? It’s the most complete and efficient healer, great OGCD, ability two weave, CS, High mitigation, so please have a moment of meditation before type stuff like that lol xD
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You question the idea that SCH is broken, and then you list off all the reasons why it's broken....
It's a perfect job as it currently is now, it has no obvious downsides and that's precisely why it's broken next to a job like WHM.

[Mansion]

You question the idea that SCH is broken, and then you list off all the reasons why it's broken....
It's a perfect job as it currently is now, it has no obvious downsides and that's precisely why it's broken next to a job like WHM.

Well that's just how you want to see the things:
SCH is broken compared to WHM. But then SCH is well balanced compared to AST. WHM is not the basis of healing in FFXIV.

I don't think the discussion is constructive if WHM is your focal point of comparison. SCH in Stormblood's high end content just fits the deal, and so does AST. There is not so much healing required in those fights, they can contribute to raid DPS by buffing or by their pDPS (meaning they can heal with little DPS loss). Their kits are well designed, that's a fact.

Healing in FFXIV currently works fine for 2 jobs out of 3. WHM is the problem, not SCH.

[MoroMurasaki]

Healing in FFXIV currently works fine for 2 jobs out of 3. WHM is the problem, not SCH.

Acting like there isn't a huge gap between AST and SCH is either disingenuous or ignorant. Diurnal AST has clears because the alternative is WHM but Noct is essentially pointless outside of encounters that you have down to a science like the linked o9s video from Mono Sama.

WHM is an issue in terms of healer balance because it's underpowered but SCH is the same problem in the opposite direction.

[EaMett]

Noct is essentially pointless outside of encounters that you have down to a science like the linked o9s video from Mono Sama.

That's perfectly normal. If WHM weren't so shitty we would see way more WHM+AST combos. It just never happens because the rDPS gap between whm and sch is outrageous. There isn't a huge gap between noct AST and SCH. Just plenty of SCH to go around because the SCH/AST balance is relatively recent.

Also, people who think WHM will ever be on par with the other healers are going to be sorely disappointed. It's contrary to everything WHM stands for in the eyes of SE, they've made this incredibly clear over the past few years. WHM will always be the non meta healer (it takes very specific content to leverage it better than the other healers). CNJ is the only healer available at the start of the game, it's meant to be the forgiving healer for beginners and people who struggle with their controls. It's the one healer who's design is to have a moderate learning curve and early skill cap.

I suspect they will fix a bit of the potencies, maybe fix a bit of weaving issues WHM has in 4.5. Nothing game changing though. Then revamp in 5.0 so we get something roughly equivalent to where we were at 4.0.

[KDSilver]

That's perfectly normal. If WHM weren't so shitty

Whm really need adjustment indeed, but he's far from being "shitty".
And he's not the only "prob" in the WHM/AST comp.
Noct Ast hardly compete with Sch for that spot...

Lady of Crown is RNG, even if personnal shield is stronger, it's still breaks quickly, he has a "lack" of sustained heal/regen, CU is on a 90s.
He may have to use to benefic II or Helios while SCH could just pop Indom/whispering dawn/ let the fairy do with embrace/fey union
The Bole isn't really a reliable option. It's RNG, and any bole you'd keep on Spread would be a DPS card you could have instead.
Sch can just pop Fey Wind and Chain Stratagem, keep dpsing and rely on its strong hGCD.
The gap got smaller between Aspected Helios / Succor
Noct Ast has to make sacrifice (own dps/cards/your co-healer perf) while SCH synced better with regen healers.

[Mansion]

Acting like there isn't a huge gap between AST and SCH is either disingenuous or ignorant. Diurnal AST has clears because the alternative is WHM but Noct is essentially pointless outside of encounters that you have down to a science like the linked o9s video from Mono Sama.

But in the context of AST noct and WHM, AST is still so much better in healing/DPS balance and raid utility, (and that would still be the case for WHM and diurnal AST if the fight allows no shielding).
I see your point though, you mean AST is good but SCH is even better, I kinda agree on that. But I'm repeating myself: that's because SCH is the closest to FFXIV's optimal healing gameplay, while WHM is far behind. I don't see it as a matter of overpower.

[MoroMurasaki]

But in the context of AST noct and WHM, AST is still so much better in healing/DPS balance and raid utility, (and that would still be the case for WHM and diurnal AST if the fight allows no shielding).
I see your point though, you mean AST is good but SCH is even better, I kinda agree on that. But I'm repeating myself: that's because SCH is the closest to FFXIV's optimal healing gameplay, while WHM is far behind. I don't see it as a matter of overpower.

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

[Mansion]

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

Uuuuh ok now I understand, thanks!
I never actually wondered about the comparison between SCH and AST because they work so well together, thus my position of finding a spot to WHM in that position.

But let's say nerfing SCH oGCD healing potency (such as indom and exco), it will automatically require healing compensation from both healers (more shielding and more top up afterwards for instance, or keep tanks higher than what we currently do), so maybe it will force some GCD heal on the AST and the SCH, and then naturally bring their DPS output a bit down, for that number of GCD. But that still does not make a reliable spot for WHM (or noct AST).

[MoroMurasaki]

Uuuuh ok now I understand, thanks!
I never actually wondered about the comparison between SCH and AST because they work so well together, thus my position of finding a spot to WHM in that position.

But let's say nerfing SCH oGCD healing potency (such as indom and exco), it will automatically require healing compensation from both healers (more shielding and more top up afterwards for instance, or keep tanks higher than what we currently do), so maybe it will force some GCD heal on the AST and the SCH, and then naturally bring their DPS output a bit down, for that number of GCD. But that still does not make a reliable spot for WHM (or noct AST).

The thing is in a vacuum WHM still has the strongest pDPS of any healer because Stone IV is the highest potency nuke. With a relatively small dps buff to WHM and some more GCD healing coming from AST and SCH I could definitely see WHM pDPS at least making it a reasonable choice to bring instead of a universally regarded detriment.

I think at this point the only potential rDPS that WHM could bring would be the indirect rDPS buff of a faster kill. SE has made it clear that they aren't going to give it any party-boosting ability so the alternative is to make it the true "BLM of the healers" and buff it's own damage instead. A selfish healer may not be meta but it could at least be a reasonable choice instead of a truly questionable one. I say this as someone with a WHM in my static that I love. As much as I would never pressure her to go AST I can objectively see how it isn't doing us any favors.

If we acknowledge that WHM pDPS needs a buff the question then becomes how much of one? That's why I would request SCH specifically be reigned in, to close the gap between the healers to make the requisite WHM buff a smaller one and thus minimize the change to healer dps overall by as much as possible.

Glad I explained well enough though, most of these are typed out quick on my phone at work so I'm glad I got my point across xD

[Jinzhu]

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

In a post before you said SCH brings more pDPS than AST but it doesn't. With the new AST changes in 4.3 and the changes to Miner Arcana in 4.4 AST will bring more pDPS than a SCH with average lord luck. The only reason AST is doing less than SCH in some fights is because they are forced to use the tome weapon for BiS (which isn't really that good Crit/Pie) instead of the raid weapon, while SCHs got a pretty good raid weapon. And ASTs are playing for the party not themselves, if an AST were to play selfishly you'd see a much bigger gap between DPS. I'd say SCH is more balanced than AST in it's current state as well because everything a SCH does has a equivalent exchange(?) system to it. If you want to Indom or Excog you're giving up 150 potency/1200 MP to use them because you're losing an Energy Drain. This is the main reason why SCH abilities aren't used much in the high end environments unless they're saving a GCD which is barely a 70 potency gain.

While ASTs can just use Earthly Star every 60s, Collective every 90s and Essential Dignity every 40s. You overestimate SCHs abilities way too much and underestimate ASTs just by reading your responses and don't really understand just how strong AST is. AST in it's current state is the reason SCHs can get away with not having to GCD heal or use their aetherflow stacks at all because ASTs kit is just so powerful.

SCH needs a nerf on the fairy but that's about it. Everything else in SCHs kit is a double edged sword because you lose potency regardless of what you do.

Nerf embrace or get rid of it and make Fey Union the only source of single target healing and you'd have a pretty well balanced job. A passive single target regen that you can control for the whole fight without the cost of resources is too strong and is the sole reason SCHs are brought aside from the rDPS.