SCH needs some nerfs

[Jinzhu]

I really like this post just because it gives a lot of insight for card decision making at a very high end level. It doesn't change my opinion that the reward for playing AST as a lower skill level feels far too good for the effort you have to put into it as you can ignore a lot of this optimization and still get good mileage for your buffs as long as you have a general idea of how kits operate and a running gauge of everyone's DPS - but it definitely puts into light the amount of effort one has to put on to the table to reach those top percentiles. And even if you remove the card system entirely from AST they would still do more rDPS than WHM due to their current levels of pDPS.

Give party buffs gain strength as the gear levels increase in an expansion, I almost wonder if the party buffs given by healers could use a minor nerf just to allow WHM to keep up with the power creep for the expansion. Just some food for thought to put on the table.

Yeah I agree that AST is is rewarded more for worse play in terms of damage. However I think that bad play is also punished more on AST because it makes your cohealer miserable. As an average AST will force you to heal more due to improper Star, CU, ED uses where as WHM there's not much that really punishes their cohealer (aside from the obvious of just not healing lmao). Can't tell you how many times i've been in a party with an AST who uses 2 Earthly Stars in a 10 minute fight and no CU or pops their Star when everyone is full HP. I would much rather have a WHM coheal than an AST coheal in PF for that one reason haha.

I've also been a huge advocate of nerfing Healer DPS in some way. In most groups our rDPS on healer beats most tanks which is ridiculous. I'm not sure how I feel about nerfing raid utility though because that's one of the things that keeps things interesting (looking at ARR where there was virtually no raid utility so there was no real coordination between players)

I am actually curious. If you look at the percentile logs for UwU, WHM pretty much kills the rest of the competition at almost all percentiles. Is there a reason for that in UwU?

If healing requirements are so low, that would imply a AST/SCH team would be able to handle it easily imply the three healers would have the same DPS heirarchy as Savage yet WHM sits on the healer DPS throne for UwU. I've only seen up to Titan enrage, so I don't have the know how to dissect the fight fully, let alone how to optimize fully for the fight.

[edit] Just going to randomly add that I feel like due to the way the fight was structured, the buff alignments for WHM worked out well as I feel like I had PoM + CS up for every primal transition which coincided with TA applications which may have helped the DPS.

One of the biggest reasons for that is because people aren't really optimizing Ultimate aside from a few groups because it's a huge time investment and because of that WHM exceeds as they don't really have to do too much optimization to hit high at the highest level compared to AST. (I also don't think the gap between WHM and AST is as big as Alphascape leaderboards are making it out to be. If you were to look at Sigmascape parses were a lot closer and it's not like that gap increases overnight. Hell the #1 Chaos for WHM is in a pug lol.)

There's a threshold on speed affecting your damage in UWU as well because of kill time. Depending on how fast you kill the primals the more your CDs can get misaligned. I think at about 7:25? If you kill Titan any earlier than that you lose a set of 3 minutes as they won't be back up for Ultima. To compare our fastest kill time is 14:23 (14:20 if someone lbed at the end xd) and we kill Titan at 7:00 and lost a use of Litany/Voice where as a groups with a kill time of 14:50+ got that use. You can also gain an extra use of Potions if you pop them during Ifrit dashes but again if you kill too fast they won't be back up in time for the opener so you're knocked down a use there as well.

Another problem with killing Ultima itself fast is that it's one of those fights where the longer it lives the more DPS you will do. There's two reasons 1. You have more time to bring your DPS up after the massive amount of downtime and healing and 2. Killing faster can mess with your reopener. In my best we killed it mid burst and thats starting as soon as it starts gathering aether. If the fight would have lasted 30 seconds longer my PB could have been around 100 DPS higher.

I'm not saying that's the reason that WHM is higher because the amount of groups actually killing it that fast is small but just comparing the top healer combined between SCH+AST and SCH+WHM and the WHM did 20 more healer GCDs than my AST. And ours isnt even completely optimized. Our current map out for heals is based around Selene where as the SCH+WHM one isn't. So that's 20+ healer GCDs less with Selene. Whispering Dawn is all fluff healing in with out current setup because Earthly Star covers all of the damage Whispering would. Sucks that we weren't able to get a kill with it because of Alphascape releasing. Anyways the only reason Selene is possible is because Earthly Star basically covers for WD and I can't imagine a WHM being able to do that without too much of a loss.

The pDPS discrepancy between WHM and AST is definitely over exaggerated though. It just comes down to the point I made before and that there are no truly great groups running with WHMs compared to their AST counterpart. Sure you can optimize on WHM but that's only a piece of the puzzle. The other halves being kill time, buff alignment and coordination and just looking at the top parses in Alphascape for WHM they are very mediocre in those aspects. Like I said earlier it's not like the DPS gap between WHM and other healers can just magically grow overnight. The best WHM in O9 was in a pug and is currently ranked #5 across all healers for that fight.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

The pDPS discrepancy between WHM and AST is definitely over exaggerated though. It just comes down to the point I made before and that there are no truly great groups running with WHMs compared to their AST counterpart.

I really don't think this is the only case. Sure there's less good WHMs playing but even the best WHM parses are significantly below what an AST can do.
I really do feel like they overbuffed AST accidentally through the faster Malefic III casts. Unless you're a Bard or MCH, the game attempts to control caster damage throughput by forcing you to stop casting and move. I would think that every healers potential DPS is decided with this in mind, but now that AST is not playing by the rules and is able to cast non stop it's throwing things off.

Just looking at FFlogs, the DPS discrepancy between WHM and AST is about 1000 on average. That's just not normal no matter how you look at it.

[Jinzhu]

I really don't think this is the only case. Sure there's less good WHMs playing but even the best WHM parses are significantly below what an AST can do.
I really do feel like they overbuffed AST accidentally through the faster Malefic III casts. Unless you're a Bard or MCH, the game attempts to control caster damage throughput by forcing you to stop casting and move. I would think that every healers potential DPS is decided with this in mind, but now that AST is not playing by the rules and is able to cast non stop it's throwing things off.

Just looking at FFlogs, the DPS discrepancy between WHM and AST is about 1000 on average. That's just not normal no matter how you look at it.

Yeah they definitely overtuned AST. I made a breakdown about this before but AST gained about 4400-6600 potency from the change. How that bypassed SE is beyond me.

Anyways my point before was back in Sigma WHM was in a lot better spot for the first half of it and there were a lot of exceptional players and groups playing it. WHM actually had the highest parse unpadded out of all the healers in O5 and Clown Kefka and beat AST in every fight. One or two SCHs beat them in every other fight but they were really close.

That's comparing all the parses all the way to the end of Sigmascape right before Alphascape which means the AST changes are taken into consideration. What i'm saying is this discrepancy doesn't just increase to the extent people like to say it does or looks like. It's really just a player skill/group situation.

[KDSilver]

I made a breakdown about this before but AST gained about 4400-6600 potency from the change. How that bypassed SE is beyond me.

My guess is that they don't bother looking at it cause from their point of view (like they said several times), healers damages aren't taken into account, even if the clipping issue with AST was asked majorly by dpsing healer.
Not saying they shouldn't look at it, of course they should, but in their mind, since it's not required, it looks okay, until there's an uproar because healers damages are unbalanced and that's still raid contribution.

[LiddyGhu]

I don't disagree that Scholar is by far and away more powerful than the other two healers. But I want to tell you that the reasons you've mentioned on why scholar is unbalanced are all the wrong reasons. It's really all about the fairy.

Indomitability *does* come at a steep opportunity cost. It costs an aetherflow stack. You only get three of these every 45 seconds, and it has to compete with other tools in Scholar's own kit for usage. If you use Indomitability, you do not get one of :
Energy Drain
Sacred Soil
Excogitation
Lustrate

Perhaps the LARGEST opportunity cost here is the Energy Drain, because it does damage and restores the scholar's MP.
Indomitability is NOT the strongest heal in the game. The strongest heals in the game are actually the more situationalized ones. Whispering Dawn (again, the fairy is the most OP healer.) is the actual best heal in the game. 100% Free, and the Scholar does not even have to use an oGCD to use it. Given the nature of the game, this HoT will usually be able to do any job without any raw healing numbers required. Assize, while not as strong, also comes with the power of *doing* damage instead of taking damage away. If it can cover something, it is the best for the job hands-down. Earthly star is a little harder to use than Assize, but the same thing to be said here. Because it ALSO does damage, it has no opportunity cost.
When I am making a healing map with my co-healer, this is the priority for when all cooldowns are available and all cooldowns can do the job, in order:

Earthly Star
Assize
Asylum
Whispering Dawn
Collective Unconscious
Indomitability

As you can see, indomitability is more of the "Fall-back" option when nothing else is available to do the job. Yes, it's versatile. Yes, it's good. But it's not OP by any stretch of the imagination. It is actually the worst tool of them all, but gets used the most because it's the easiest to use, and is the most often available to use.

I will also argue that Scholar DOES have to clip and weaving opportunities are NOT unlimited. Bio II is once every 30s, Miasma II costs a TON of MP, and Ruin II is TOO WEAK to weave with. Ruin II is weak enough that even if you were to clip your GCD twice for Off-GCDs, it was better to clip than ruin II. Because Broil II is that much stronger.

Regarding Scholar's personal DPS... well. Because of the aforementioned opportunity cost of Indomitability, Scholar actually ends up doing less damage than both of the other healers when playing optimally. The damage calculations you are probably looking at are attacks on Striking Dummy, where Scholar can use all of their Aetherflow on Energy Drain. Along with the lack of Energy Drain, they lose Miasma II weaving opportunities. When they can't do this, their DPS takes a nosedive. In-content is much different for Scholar.

[LiddyGhu]

As for where Scholar should be hit, well. That's absolutely in the fairy. Rather than nerfing the fairy directly, they should buff Scholar's counterpart job.
Give Nocturnal Astrologian a heal-pulse equivalent to Lily's "Embrace"; constantly healing players who are missing health for free at no cost of MP,GCD, or Recast. (Perhaps Synastry could be remade into this function?)
Make Nocturnal Astrologian's "Collective Unconscious" ability the same cooldown as Whispering Dawn (60 seconds instead of 90) and larger - Sacred Soil's size would suffice.
Remove Astrologian's ability to extend the healing effect of "Wheel of Fortune."

The reason why I would instead buff Nocturnal Astrologian is because when they tried nerfing scholar at the beginning of Stormblood, many casual players had issues getting through dungeons, and some Scholars were even kicked from parties because they were believed to be unable to keep up with healing. While it wasn't true at the time, you must think of how the casual player-base would receive nerfs to a class that is initially difficult to execute well like Scholar.

[Jinzhu]

Indomitability is NOT the strongest heal in the game. The strongest heals in the game are actually the more situationalized ones. Whispering Dawn (again, the fairy is the most OP healer.) is the actual best heal in the game. 100% Free, and the Scholar does not even have to use an oGCD to use it

Actually it's a pretty common misconception but Whispering Dawn isn't the strongest heal in the game! A lot of people are fooled by the 840 potency it brings but don't realize that the fairy is actually weaker than the player. For example a cure potency of 120 is around 3.1K for a player but only 2.4k for the fairy. Theoretically an extended Collective by CO is the strongest heal in the game being 1200 potency for 36,000 healing (no crits) then followed by Asylum which is 900 potency for 28,000 healing (no crits). After those two Earthly Star is next being 720 potency for 22,000 Healing (36,000 crit). Whispering Dawn falls into #4 at 840 pet potency for 16K healing which isn't bad but doesn't compare to the abilities listed before. The main quirk as you said before is that it cost 0 oGCD spaces and 0 resources to use but so does Collective/Earthly Star due to ASTs 1.5s gcd. Asylum is a little more troublesome as it costs oGCD space which WHMs dont have much of but with proper play shouldn't be an issue.

I don't necessarily believe Whispering Dawn is too OP simply because Eos isn't used at all in the top end environments because Earthly Star does it's job. Back in HW Eos was meta because Earthly Star didn't exist and Whispering Dawn saved more DPS from healers than Fey Wind gave.

The problem with the fairy comes down to Embrace honestly. Having a passive regen (that's stronger than ASP Benefic/Regen) that lasts throughout the fight and costs 0 resources is laughable because single target damage is the main source of incoming damage in this game. You have AoEs but those are covered with the large abundant of AoE heals each healer has. Where the only free single target heals we have in the game are Embrace, Fey Union, Essential Dignity, Tetra and Benediction. Every skill in that list is limited aside from Embrace which heals constantly for 5k/8k crit or 8k/11k Crit under Rouse.

Embrace is the reason you can get through O9-O11 with 0 single target heals and only have to cast 3 ASP B in O12S. And either needs an obvious nerf or another job needs to have a similar effect like maybe DNC. In my opinion I think it would be good to tag some MP value on Embrace making it cost 100-200 per cast and taking the auto heal function off when on Obey. This would make it so that healers at a low skill level are still able to utilize her by leaving them on auto as they won't be DPSing much so they won't run into MP issues. But at the higher levels you would be picking and choosing where to heal as MP is a lot more limited.

[Ghishlain]

Yeah I agree that AST is is rewarded more for worse play in terms of damage. However I think that bad play is also punished more on AST because it makes your cohealer miserable. As an average AST will force you to heal more due to improper Star, CU, ED uses where as WHM there's not much that really punishes their cohealer (aside from the obvious of just not healing lmao). Can't tell you how many times i've been in a party with an AST who uses 2 Earthly Stars in a 10 minute fight and no CU or pops their Star when everyone is full HP. I would much rather have a WHM coheal than an AST coheal in PF for that one reason haha.

I've also been a huge advocate of nerfing Healer DPS in some way. In most groups our rDPS on healer beats most tanks which is ridiculous. I'm not sure how I feel about nerfing raid utility though because that's one of the things that keeps things interesting (looking at ARR where there was virtually no raid utility so there was no real coordination between players)

I can agree with the first bit. AST's power comes from a coordinated group taking full advantage of the power AST gives. As soon as you take things into a PuG setting when you can't guarntee the other 7 people will make use of the AST's tools, it certainly makes it less desirable in those scenarios. If even one person misses Star / CU, the AST will need to make up with that via Dignity and/or GCD heals. Though admittedly a lot of people talk about AST's strengths in the context of optimal play so..

I will disagree with the second bit unless they also give raid buffs to WHM as well. My reasoning is the fact that real DPS contribute a higher percentage of damage than healer DPS would. Even if gear scaling increases all player's DPS at the same magnitude, healers who contribute rDPS will get higher returns versus those who do not because the raw DPS increases will affect them more.

Here's an arbitrary example to visualize my thoughts:

ilvl 100
AST = 4,400 pDPS + 530 rDPS = 4,900 total DPS [Assume AST buffs contribute 1% more DPS for a group that does 53K total DPS]
WHM = 4,900 pDPS = 4,900 total DPS

ilvl 130 (assuming a +20% DPS increase)
AST = 5,280 pDPS + 636 rDPS = 5,916 total DPS [Assume AST buffs contribute 1% more DPS for a group that does 63.6K total DPS]
WHM = 5,880 pDPS = 5,880 total DPS

So with the above example, WHM and AST were equal on one tier but as soon as the next tier happens, WHM will start to fall behind. I feel this issue would be exasperated more if healer DPS was even further reduced and more emphasis was put on tank's and DPS' DPS.

Though again, if we give WHM some form of raid utility, that'll help bridge that potential gap and I'd be more inclined to agree with a healer DPS nerf.

One of the biggest reasons for that is because people aren't really optimizing Ultimate aside from a few groups because it's a huge time investment and because of that WHM exceeds as they don't really have to do too much optimization to hit high at the highest level compared to AST. (I also don't think the gap between WHM and AST is as big as Alphascape leaderboards are making it out to be. If you were to look at Sigmascape parses were a lot closer and it's not like that gap increases overnight. Hell the #1 Chaos for WHM is in a pug lol.)

There's a threshold on speed affecting your damage in UWU as well because of kill time. Depending on how fast you kill the primals the more your CDs can get misaligned. I think at about 7:25? If you kill Titan any earlier than that you lose a set of 3 minutes as they won't be back up for Ultima. To compare our fastest kill time is 14:23 (14:20 if someone lbed at the end xd) and we kill Titan at 7:00 and lost a use of Litany/Voice where as a groups with a kill time of 14:50+ got that use. You can also gain an extra use of Potions if you pop them during Ifrit dashes but again if you kill too fast they won't be back up in time for the opener so you're knocked down a use there as well.

Another problem with killing Ultima itself fast is that it's one of those fights where the longer it lives the more DPS you will do. There's two reasons 1. You have more time to bring your DPS up after the massive amount of downtime and healing and 2. Killing faster can mess with your reopener. In my best we killed it mid burst and thats starting as soon as it starts gathering aether. If the fight would have lasted 30 seconds longer my PB could have been around 100 DPS higher.

I'm not saying that's the reason that WHM is higher because the amount of groups actually killing it that fast is small but just comparing the top healer combined between SCH+AST and SCH+WHM and the WHM did 20 more healer GCDs than my AST. And ours isnt even completely optimized. Our current map out for heals is based around Selene where as the SCH+WHM one isn't. So that's 20+ healer GCDs less with Selene. Whispering Dawn is all fluff healing in with out current setup because Earthly Star covers all of the damage Whispering would. Sucks that we weren't able to get a kill with it because of Alphascape releasing. Anyways the only reason Selene is possible is because Earthly Star basically covers for WD and I can't imagine a WHM being able to do that without too much of a loss.

The pDPS discrepancy between WHM and AST is definitely over exaggerated though. It just comes down to the point I made before and that there are no truly great groups running with WHMs compared to their AST counterpart. Sure you can optimize on WHM but that's only a piece of the puzzle. The other halves being kill time, buff alignment and coordination and just looking at the top parses in Alphascape for WHM they are very mediocre in those aspects. Like I said earlier it's not like the DPS gap between WHM and other healers can just magically grow overnight. The best WHM in O9 was in a pug and is currently ranked #5 across all healers for that fight.

Thanks for the insight~

Just looking at FFlogs, the DPS discrepancy between WHM and AST is about 1000 on average. That's just not normal no matter how you look at it.

I'd like to add that AST is also almost equal to SCH in pDPS contribution across the board as well. For a healer job that is suppose to have the least potential DPS based on SSS, that's also something that we shouldn't consider normal.

The problem with the fairy comes down to Embrace honestly. Having a passive regen (that's stronger than ASP Benefic/Regen) that lasts throughout the fight and costs 0 resources is laughable because single target damage is the main source of incoming damage in this game. You have AoEs but those are covered with the large abundant of AoE heals each healer has. Where the only free single target heals we have in the game are Embrace, Fey Union, Essential Dignity, Tetra and Benediction. Every skill in that list is limited aside from Embrace which heals constantly for 5k/8k crit or 8k/11k Crit under Rouse.

Funny enough, Aspected Benefic is actually more potency per 3 seconds than either Regen or Embrace when you combine both the initial heal and the the HoT component of it.

Regen = 150 potency / 3s
Embrace = (250 potency*0.66) = 165 potency / 3s
D.Aspected Benefic = {[200 + (140*6)]*1.1} / 6 = 190 potency / 3s

With that being said, given the GCD commodity game we play now for optimized play, I'd also be inclined to nerf Embrace. Both Regen and D.Aspected Benefic cost a GCD and AB also costs an arm and a leg to cast where as Embrace is both GCD and MP free.

It's amusing - I wouldn't of remotely thought of agreeing with this suggestion back in the second / final Coil days but times have changed a lot since then.

[LiddyGhu]

Actually it's a pretty common misconception but Whispering Dawn isn't the strongest heal in the game! A lot of people are fooled by the 840 potency it brings but don't realize that the fairy is actually weaker than the player. For example a cure potency of 120 is around 3.1K for a player but only 2.4k for the fairy. Theoretically an extended Collective by CO is the strongest heal in the game being 1200 potency for 36,000 healing (no crits) then followed by Asylum which is 900 potency for 28,000 healing (no crits). After those two Earthly Star is next being 720 potency for 22,000 Healing (36,000 crit). Whispering Dawn falls into #4 at 840 pet potency for 16K healing which isn't bad but doesn't compare to the abilities listed before. The main quirk as you said before is that it cost 0 oGCD spaces and 0 resources to use but so does Collective/Earthly Star due to ASTs 1.5s gcd. Asylum is a little more troublesome as it costs oGCD space which WHMs dont have much of but with proper play shouldn't be an issue.

The raw potency was not the reason why I labeled it as the "strongest." Sorry about the wording, but what I meant was "best."
The range, being completely cost-free, and only being 60s on cooldown (the most key point), as well as not requiring the scholar to stop casting for even a moment to use it are what makes it the best. My apologies.
Another noteworthy aspect would be that the fairy can often stand in places the healers themselves cannot, making it the only option available to hit all players in some scenarios.

[Erakir]

Regarding Scholar's personal DPS... well. Because of the aforementioned opportunity cost of Indomitability, Scholar actually ends up doing less damage than both of the other healers when playing optimally. The damage calculations you are probably looking at are attacks on Striking Dummy, where Scholar can use all of their Aetherflow on Energy Drain. Along with the lack of Energy Drain, they lose Miasma II weaving opportunities. When they can't do this, their DPS takes a nosedive. In-content is much different for Scholar.

Eh? Doing less when playing optimally?

This whole thread has had examples of current savage content and healer damage numbers, both in highly optimized and sub-optimal play (Come join me down here, we just killed O11, woo!~). Are the 99% combined healer damage numbers suddenly sub-optimal play? Say whatever we want about kill times affecting DPS numbers so the healer DPS number isn't the only real factor, the end result is still a stronger raid group.

Don't get me wrong I completely agree that SCH loses out on striking dummy damage from not being able to ED 3x every 45s in a real raid environment, but from an extremely quick look at logs I'm seeing SCH right up there next to AST on combined healer damage rankings, flip flopping some per pull. As expected these scholars are using a LOT of ED and limiting their Indoms, excogs, etc, but if we're talking optimal play - well there's still a lot of EDs going out there so they're certainly able to use it a good bit.

As I'd go down the list I'd fully expect to see less EDs being used, but the numbers posted much earlier in the thread don't lie. Scholar pDPS is high across the board at all percentiles, despite losing EDs on sub optimal parses, which means that regardless of what SCH is losing in less optimal play, ASTs and WHMs are losing just as much if not more for whatever reasons in their groups. SCHs are certainly not doing less damage, else this thread wouldn't really exist. WHM loses far more of their DPS potential on the whole, because let's face it - WHM still has the highest single target solo damage on striking dummies. The reason why WHM loses so much of its potential has been discussed at length already.

Miasma 2's cost definitely gets less and less of an issue with refresh and double refresh - no other healer gets to take advantage of extra MP at all DPSwise like SCH gets to when it comes to damage. Miasma 2 damage is kind of a bonus since as far as I know, Square has not retuned the SSS dummy formulas since adding it back into the game, meaning SCH's potential DPS is higher than their calculations use...if they honestly use those numbers for tuning (The numbers on the SSS calculator online show SCH at 90% of WHM target DPS across the board for what's up there, though I don't see Alphascape). None of us can know the extent of which they use those numbers, though. I mean, we obviously factor them, but when it comes to who specifically is tuning the encounters with all their deadlines, honestly dunno.

I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just really not sure what you're getting at with that comment. Happy to hear any clarification!

I'd also argue that what you say about Indom is precisely why it's so powerful. Mmmm I can certainly agree that other abilities have less opportunity cost (Aetherflow and all) and can be used for wonderful effects, but it's simply its availability and versatility that shoot it up there. It's a very powerful tool that - I mean, I can kinda call it "icing on the cake" given everything the fairy does. I don't think it's THE reason, so I very much agree with you; the fairy is a far bigger deal overall. Indom is just really dang good at what it does and is ridiculously useful, even if it's the first to go as we get more and more optimal due to that opportunity cost. The 45s AF change and potency buff just make it even better at what it was designed for, even though we have ES now and a 60s Assize as well.

The fact that it's such a generally powerful ability and is used infrequently at top levels of play simply gives more credence to what you say with the fairy. SCH is as strong as it is without constant Indom, yet if they need it it's still there - it's kinda like Scholar is an expensive sports car AND comes with amazing insurance. The good drivers aren't gonna get into a wreck, but the less skilled ones still have it as an ace in the hole, and they have a lot of it. I'm always gonna be salty at Indom's kneejerk buff in early in SB cause it just honestly didn't need it, but what can ya do.

Regardless, as I mentioned a long time ago though, I pretty much agree and would really like to see Noct modified to better compete with SCH at what SCH does, in particular with things like modifying Synastry's function in Noct as well as thoughts of CU to better match Whispering Dawn. Or, as Ghish says, get a 4th healer and just draw the hard line of WHM/AST and SCH/DNC-or-Whatever and striking trying to make AST fit two kinda roles.

Edit: Since I've been gone from this thread the past week or two, it's had a lot of discussion and more in-depth analysis by various players. It's insightful and I agree with a bunch of what's been pointed out. Just wanted to thank those of you contributing, has remained pretty civil and informative.