So, how is Pagos?

[Rangar]

The high level chain bonus is still bugged to hell and randomly won't give you credit on kills

[Rokke]

Slightly increasing chain times would help some (so people can type), but lowering HP hurts the grind. Some people want to grind. There is a great deal of old school mmo nostalgia that goes with it. It goes back to a time where you only join a group, when you know you have a least an hour to play. 2 hours was the average. They don't comment on the forums, because they don't want to deal with the hate they could receive. It's an echo chamber in here. The last thing Pagos needs is a nerf.

You still need 31 crystals to finish a single weapon. Shaving some health off mobs wouldn't make people finish their relics in 10 seconds.

[Hamada]

If they did that, it would destroy the whole point. You are supposed to grind not power level. It would make the people that like Pagos not like it. Relics are meant to be a grind. The early relic steps in Anemos were laughably quick, once your character had elemental level 20.

Slightly increasing chain times would help some (so people can type), but lowering HP hurts the grind. Some people want to grind. There is a great deal of old school mmo nostalgia that goes with it. It goes back to a time where you only join a group, when you know you have a least an hour to play. 2 hours was the average. They don't comment on the forums, because they don't want to deal with the hate they could receive. It's an echo chamber in here. The last thing Pagos needs is a nerf.

Having flaws in older games is not an excuse to bring them back in the name of nostalgia. Yesterday I was trying to finish my log but I couldn't because I could not find a group with my level. Making a game unplayable in the game of nostalgia is not a wise business model. Also note it worked better in the past because it had a way higher population at any given point. The idea is not practical for FFXIV and it simply does not work. Even ffxi later came out with level sync to combat that flaw, something people where asking for in the first Eureka, but for some reason ignored the player base despite it being heavily asked for. SE needs to be stop being out of touch with its user base.

[whiteblade89]

While the location and atmosphere are cool, I freaking hate it. I managed to slog through Anemos, hoping that it would change, but it legit hasn't. It's the same old slog, and for whatever reason SE had to wait 8 months after releasing Anemos to release this? The best part of Anemos was the social factor, but I dont attribute that to the devs at all. That was the players making the best of a boring grind-fest. And now we have the exact same thing except with a challenge log this time. Great. I'm gonna go beat my head against a wall now. If the relics weren't tied behind this content, I highly doubt that anyone would be doing it.

[InkstainedGwyn]

Every time I go into Pagos, the # of people in the instance is <100. I'm getting the same reports from others. I'm sure there's folks that like it but unless they do speak up, and unless I see some evidence otherwise, I'm going to continue to believe that they're in the minority. XIV's whole premise was that it was ultra-accessible to casuals. Like it or not, they've espoused this from the beginning. This is supposed to be content for the general playerbase (an alternative to savage and extreme); if the majority of the general playerbase doesn't like it, it's not a success.

[Souljacker]

Having flaws in older games is not an excuse to bring them back in the name of nostalgia. Yesterday I was trying to finish my log but I couldn't because I could not find a group with my level. Making a game unplayable in the game of nostalgia is not a wise business model. Also note it worked better in the past because it had a way higher population at any given point. The idea is not practical for FFXIV and it simply does not work. Even ffxi later came out with level sync to combat that flaw, something people where asking for in the first Eureka, but for some reason ignored the player base despite it being heavily asked for. SE needs to be stop being out of touch with its user base.

And let's not forget that you had the entire pool of players to build parties with, and multiple jobs at different given levels which extended the possibilities a great bit.

We have a pool of 144 people and the instances make absolutely no effort to distribute players by level or in any meaningful way. 144 sounds like a lot, but when every player has exactly one elemental level (as opposed to XI and even outside Eureka where every job is leveled individually), you get one shot to be within level range of any other given person before either they outlevel you or you outlevel them.

SE just doesn't think ahead which is baffling, considering they had 15 years of this to learn from.

[Hamada]

And let's not forget that you had the entire pool of players to build parties with, and multiple jobs at different given levels which extended the possibilities a great bit.

We have a pool of 144 people and the instances make absolutely no effort to distribute players by level or in any meaningful way. 144 sounds like a lot, but when every player has exactly one elemental level (as opposed to XI and even outside Eureka where every job is leveled individually), you get one shot to be within level range of any other given person before either they outlevel you or you outlevel them.

SE just doesn't think ahead which is baffling, considering they had 15 years of this to learn from.

That is what I was talking about when I said "Also note it worked better in the past because it had a way higher population at any given point."

[ForctyusGold]

i maybe told that , but ! its so bad place and bad instance ! who could invest their time to make this thing ? im just done with that farming xp from mobs, which you need kill so many ! there is no invence and i doubt in japanese , how they were creative after i saw this thing , its just really avoidable for many players, do you want that SE? its just from one extreme do another extreme, how i now love Anemos

[Zsolen]

I've never played FFXI. FFXI isn't old school. Neither is WoW. There is more free will in Pagos vs a linear dungeon. The difficulty relies on the ability to keep up the pace. I would never knock on someone for preferring the dungeons of today's mmos. I only find a few like Aurum Vale to be even remotely interesting, but I don't think they should be removed or become grindy like the relic quests should be.

Calling grinding a flaw for a relic step is silly. Grinding is not a flaw, but a feature. Relic always required some sort of grind, even in this type of mmo. Keeping up chains and positioning yourself correctly is a part of the challenge. DRG shouldn't use jump, when it could aggro another close by mob. Be aware of sprites. Don't be that party that stands next to another party. That will be learned by others over time.

Rez others in need. You have time to finish your chain, and good parties can spare a healer or RDM. You could also use LB to push one mob along, while someone raises. Play with your board. Maybe your tank doesn't need everything in defense to make up for those situations. Unless, they were harassing your group or another group, you rez them. That is how community forms. In Anemos, people would bring the 'danger noodles' to lowbies actually trying to help spawn a nm, so they would die. They would also drag a bunch of mobs to a nm on purpose. When lowbies spawned a nm on their side of the map, people got bitter over it. That's not good for community. That doesn't happen as much now, because the environment is more dangerous for everyone and the train is broken.

Even Raid groups have to clear their raids multiple times to get the gear they want, and that's with a lock out. So either do that, do this, or just run Lighthouse for a 370 weapon and then wait until next patch. You have options. Different options are available for different types of players.

Getting SE to destroy content for certain players, just so other people can have easy upgrades is a bad business move. SE wants as many types of players possible. People complained about Anemos up until the day Pagos was released. Now most people on the forums hate Pagos but like Anemos. It reminds me of the people that complain about the Disney Star Wars movies, comparing them to the much more beloved prequel trilogy. When the prequel trilogy came out, people hated it. They said it was not as good as the original movies. People also had complaints about Return of the Jedi, when it came out. Don't hate on something, because you aren't used to it. Learn what it is about, first.

[InkstainedGwyn]

The relic isn't and should never be geared towards "a specific set of people". The relic has always been for the general population. I have no problems with there being a grindfest for people who enjoy grindfests, just as I have no problem with there being Ultimate for the harder-than-extreme players, PVP for those that enjoy it (whether or not XIV's PVP is effective is beside the point), glamour options, crafting, gardening, chocobo races, housing, and all of the other elements that are enjoyed more by one group than another. However, the primary "goal" of FFXIV is to progress in PVE. To get the best weapon, you have to either do savage/EX trials, or the relic. This is a "general population" element, and the "general population" does not like Pagos. They've also locked several other items - crafting materials, an emote, minions, housing items, and other objects - behind this grind. Will they be on the MB at some point? Some will, some won't. For the pieces that are bound, you're screwed. For the others, you have to hope that someone will eventually sell it. And a week after Pagos was released, we haven't even had one of the Shiver emotes put up on our MB.

Had Eureka been a side release such as Ultimate, I wouldn't have cared, even if they'd put a separate set of rewards and goals in that are not the relic. I'm not even against a slog, as I'm still working on several animas and an original relic - but the nice thing about those is that I'm not having to rely on others' goodwill to do them. Nobody else in my party has to be grinding their relics for me to progress in mine. I don't want to take away your toy, I just want to not be forced to do it for mainstream content in a game that has never before embraced this kind of content, and is not the norm.