Sexual harassment

[AriaFairchild]

Wow! you seem to be taking victim-blaming to a whole new level here. So, are you really saying that if someone I care about gets abused, I not only get to admonish their poor decision-making but I can also cry, 'poor me!' because their being hurt is distressing for me!?!
I think such a reaction would be insensitive, self-obsessed and entirely inappropriate. Shaming someone because they have been abused is not only unfair, it's pretty abusive in itself.
The worst thing is, this lets the abuser off the hook. You are focusing entirely on the victim and what you think they did wrong. Implying people are just stupid if they let harassment or abuse happen to them (and now selfish too, because of the distress it could cause their friends and family) helps nobody apart from those who harass and abuse. Making excuses for these people simply allows them to continue their behaviour unchecked.

Victim blaming seems to be everyone's favorite buzzword nowadays, because condemning the abuser and calling out the victim for their poor decisions are not mutually exclusive. The abuser must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, however, the victim needs to be reminded of their decision making.

You are just being overtly dramatic, nobody is crying "poor me" here, nobody is letting the abuser off the hook here. If you think telling your kid they are being irresponsible is being insensitive, and that their irresponsibility is affecting others, you are doing a poor job raising children. Children don't exist in a vacuum, they need to grow up to be responsible adults too and to make wise decisions too. Part of maturity is realizing that your actions affect others, and by not letting them reflecting on that perspective, they are going to make foolish decisions again.

[Rogatum]

My question is why does it need to be one or the other? One can still reprimand a person for their actions while consoling and helping them through the next stages. When I was mugged, you know the first thing the cops asked me after checked to see if I was okay? "What the hell were you doing this late in this area, let alone taking cash out in front of people?" I was reprimanded for my actions, they told me it could have gone a lot worse, I could have been beaten badly or even worse killed. The police did not choose to help me for my foolishness and ignorance, but they did not sweep it under the rug either. They were sure to let me know that I was naive and extremely ignorant of the world. This lesson taught me a lot and I am thankfully for those officers,

So once again why does it have to be one or the other? I do not think anyone is saying we should put all the blame on the victim and not help them, but point remains certain actions lead to a point due to the actions of the victim. Now we cannot say if the outcome would have changed if they did not make the same choices, but who knows how differently it could have been though. Also regarding the example about the kidnapped child, what makes that case different then the Harambe one? At the core both happened because the parents was inattentive. Why is one consider victim blaming and the other is viewed as shitty parents?

Because it literally achieves nothing. The victim already blames themselves.

I learned a lot from the police that reprimanded me after I was mugged. I got a lot out of that talk with the officers. The talk I had with them taught me that I have personal responsibility for my actions, I cannot control those around me but I can control my own actions and I was taught that each choice we make in life has inherent risk, and if I am not comfortable with the potential risks it is probably best I do not do said action. I am glad those officers did not sugar coat what could have happened, how my choices not only impact myself and those around me and my family. I think it did achieve a great deal, wouldn't you? Do not get me wrong in the moment I was shaken up, and upset with the officers in the moment. After I slept on it I realized what they did was to help me. While I did not thank them in the moment, next day I went to the precinct to thank them. I get it can be scary to get scolded when you already feel like shit, but in what world should that mean the scolding was unnecessary or does not achieve anything, or worst of all invalidate the help? One can both reprimand and help a person through the next stages they are not mutually exclusive.

Edit: My response the comment below, seemed silly to use a post for such a quick response.

Look, I'm gonna assume you probably already knew you have personal responsibility to yourself. Everyone already knows that. It's likely that you already knew that there'd be an inherent risk in withdrawing money from the ATM at that time. To be honest, you would have to be extremely dense to not already know that.

When the tire in my brother's car blew out because I didn't remember to put air in it, it didn't matter that I didn't remember that and it didn't matter that he should have replaced the tire a long time ago. While we were sitting there berating each other for the things we had done wrong, what really mattered was that I was stuck on a rural highway with a blown out tire. We knew we were each at fault in this situation, but it wasn't important. All we were doing was wasting time. The committer of a crime is the person at fault for the crime. We all know that. What did it matter that you could have taken steps to prevent that from happening to you? You made a mistake, it happened, but you didn't do anything wrong. You were perfectly within your rights to visit that ATM and withdraw cash at night, and frankly, the police were very unprofessional to bother with reprimanding you for doing something legal when they should have been focused on the person who mugged you.

That is the thing though they still helped me throughout the process after they reprimanded me. They did their job, sure they could have worded it nicer, and consoled me more but does not invalidate what they said. While I knew their was a risk with drawing from the ATM, I will be honest and did not think how that action would ripple and what kind of impact it would have on others around me not just myself. In the moment I will be honest I put all the blame on the person that mugged me, I kept asking myself why me, why me. I refused to take personal responsibility for my actions in that moment. I felt as if it was the worlds fault and not my own. If that makes sense. Now if you the scolding halts progress then I understand where you are coming from, but that normally only happens when a person is not receptive to the information being told. That is when conflict comes about, and progress comes to a halt. In the moment I did wonder why I was getting scolded for making a executing poor judgment, since the ways the cops put in the end that one mistake could have been my last. If that makes sense.

Personally I thought they were extremely professional and helpful despite the fact in the moment I was annoyed at the fact I was getting told by these officers what could have been. They were not wrong.

[Elamys]

My question is why does it need to be one or the other? One can still reprimand a person for their actions while consoling and helping them through the next stages.

Because it literally achieves nothing. The victim already blames themselves.

I learned a lot from the police that reprimanded me after I was mugged. I got a lot out of that talk with the officers. The talk I had with them taught me that I have personal responsibility for my actions, I cannot control those around me but I can control my own actions and I was taught that each choice we make in life has inherent risk, and if I am not comfortable with the potential risks it is probably best I do not do said action.

Look, I'm gonna assume you probably already knew you have personal responsibility to yourself. Everyone already knows that. It's likely that you already knew that there'd be an inherent risk in withdrawing money from the ATM at that time. To be honest, you would have to be extremely dense to not already know that.

When the tire in my brother's car blew out because I didn't remember to put air in it, it didn't matter that I didn't remember that and it didn't matter that he should have replaced the tire a long time ago. While we were sitting there berating each other for the things we had done wrong, what really mattered was that I was stuck on a rural highway with a blown out tire. We knew we were each at fault in this situation, but it wasn't important. All we were doing was wasting time. The committer of a crime is the person at fault for the crime. We all know that. What did it matter that you could have taken steps to prevent that from happening to you? You made a mistake, it happened, but you didn't do anything wrong. You were perfectly within your rights to visit that ATM and withdraw cash at night, and frankly, the police were very unprofessional to bother with reprimanding you for doing something legal when they should have been focused on the person who mugged you.

[Solarra]

If you think telling your kid they are being irresponsible is being insensitive, and that their irresponsibility is affecting others, you are doing a poor job raising children.

*Jawdrop* You're taking ad-hominem to a new level, too.

My point was that if a younger member of your family is abused and all you can offer is a lecture on how irresponsible they were to let it happen and how it's affecting you then you are basically throwing yourself a 'pity party' and making their problems all about yourself. A bit of support and practical help might be more appropriate.

If you had read my earlier posts in this thread you would have seen that I am absolutely in favour of giving people the knowledge and tools to minimize their risk of being harassed and to cope with it if it happens.
However, putting all the emphasis on 'how not to be a victim' does send out the message to potential abusers that if a person doesn't respond to them in a certain manner then anything they do is at least partly excused.

[Alleo]

Just imagine you have a car accident because you sadly drove a bit faster than what is allowed. You land in hospital, barely survived it and maybe you will even be permanently hurt. And the thing that your family says to you is: Why could you not have driven slower? You should have been a good adult..Probably totally "helps" the person that already realized their mistake and paid for it the most.

The same with abuse. The person in question is probably already beating themselves up for it because that who suffer of the after effect are those that realized that they were abused. Thus imo the best that family could do is to support them without any negative comments...because the person itself will know the best what went wrong and now need all the help and support they can get, to get through this. (I mean abuse is whole different level than a child throwing a tandrum or doing something bad.)

@Aria: If your child has been sexually assaulted on the street would you really scold them for "mistakes"? Because hey she wore that short dress, its surely her fault and not the one that assaulted her.

[Rogatum]

Just imagine you have a car accident because you sadly drove a bit faster than what is allowed. You land in hospital, barely survived it and maybe you will even be permanently hurt. And the thing that your family says to you is: Why could you not have driven slower? You should have been a good adult..Probably totally "helps" the person that already realized their mistake and paid for it the most.

The same with abuse. The person in question is probably already beating themselves up for it because that who suffer of the after effect are those that realized that they were abused. Thus imo the best that family could do is to support them without any negative comments...because the person itself will know the best what went wrong and now need all the help and support they can get, to get through this. (I mean abuse is whole different level than a child throwing a tandrum or doing something bad.)

@Aria: If your child has been sexually assaulted on the street would you really scold them for "mistakes"? Because hey she wore that short dress, its surely her fault and not the one that assaulted her.

I think the key factor is age here or the cognitive ability of the person in question. For example if someone forced themselves on a sleeping person scolding them would be wrong. So say if someone is a small child, has limited cognitive ability (due to age) or is mentally handicapped, and or asleep placing blame on them serves no purpose since they either will not be able to comprehend / be respective to what is going on, or had any control over their actions. It is a different case if someone left their drink unattended and was drugged. Really comes down to how doing what we can to protect ourselves far as is possible and practicable. So yes certain cases placing the blame on the person does not make sense, but in cases like the kidnapped child because the parent was inattentive, mugged due to in short not reading the situation probably, or in the case of someone got into an accident due to driving above the speed limit. They should be told what they did, because this is not just about them. I was guilty of this when I was mugged, I thought oh it is 2016 who mugs people anymore. That was my arrogance showing. In your example with the car, what happens if the family in question does not have good insurance and now because of their reckless driving the burden is placed on the family, or if they happened to hit another car while driving above the speed limit. The sad thing is rarely do any of our actions have an impact solely on us. Like with the cops I thought my actions impacted only me, never thought what weight my actions truly have. I could have died all because I executed poor judgement, I can tell you in that moment I did not think I could die because I withdrew money from an ATM in a deli around people late at night. Granted you can die doing anything, but as people we should enforce and encourage people protect themselves far as is possible and practicable to mitigate risk factors. Something could still go wrong, but at the very least you tried. Guess what I am trying to say is right to excuse inaction and poor judgement because someone's feelings may get hurt?

I hope what I am trying to say makes sense, not the best at explaining things in text.

[Sigma-Astra]

I feel like I should just drop this here for people to watch or listen if they feel like in this topic and just leave in peace with some of these comments. Because, yikes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNIwYsz7PI

[AriaFairchild]

If you had read my earlier posts in this thread

all you can offer is a lecture on how irresponsible they were to let it happen and how it's affecting you then you are basically throwing yourself a 'pity party' and making their problems all about yourself

*Jawdrop* You're taking tunnel-visioning to a new level.

I'll show her compassion, after chastising her for her immaturity/foolishness.

Take your own advice man. You are the only one who zeroed in on the 'pity party' aspect, when no one did such thing. All that I had said is that the kid needs to know how its action had affected others, and that showing compassion is a given in this case.

For example:

"You know what, Junior, what you did was very foolish. You left without letting me or your mom know. You made us worried sick about you. Now that you are here, you are safe. That's all that matter. But promise us to always tell mom and dad whenever you go, alright? We love you more than anything in this world."

cue jaw drop sound for dramatic effect

How can this example be used when someone was sexual harassed? Your example sounds more like a young child that went too far away from their parents, not someone that was abused or sexual attacked. Also what would you say to someone that went through that on the internet? For something that went on for months?

This is just used to illustrate that reprimanding (if the person did actually do something stupid) and showing love can happen at the same time. For a particular case, you can phrase it in a similar spirit. And also:

And 18 years is still a child. You don't become an adult until your early to mid twenties. Just because the state might consider you an adult for the purposes of the judiciary, it by no means indicates that you are an adult where it really matters. Neuroscience is the authority on this, not arbitrary legal thresholds.

There's this consensus that 18 is still a child, so I am doing exactly that, treating them like a child. In this particular case, the child did just that "went too far away from their parents" without telling the parents even.

[Alleo]

In your example with the car, what happens if the family in question does not have good insurance and now because of their reckless driving the burden is placed on the family, or if they happened to hit another car while driving above the speed limit. The sad thing is rarely do any of our actions have an impact solely on us.
.

But the thing is, that with the car example if the person itself is already so wounded that they might not heal completely again dont you think it would be too much to scold them for that? If they have any responsibility they will already feel horrible because of them being wounded and for the accident itself, going around and blaming them might even send them over the edge. How would it be if they then decide that they are not worth living anymore and kill themselves? (I know a harsh topic) And with abuse, what if the person that got abused was already mentally unstable? Wouldnt that make it worse too? Maybe even make them feel like everyone is better off without them?

There are situations were its fine to point out the mistakes but I believe there are also situations were something like that can make matters worse. Sometimes its just better to support the person instead of butting blames on them. Maybe later, when all is done, when they are over it and on the way to get better, maybe then its time for a talk. But after it happens? No I dont think that would be good.

*
For example:

"You know what, Junior, what you did was very foolish. You left without letting me or your mom know. You made us worried sick about you. Now that you are here, you are safe. That's all that matter. But promise us to always tell mom and dad whenever you go, alright? We love you more than anything in this world."

How can this example be used when someone was sexual harassed? Your example sounds more like a young child that went too far away from their parents, not someone that was abused or sexual attacked. Also what would you say to someone that went through that on the internet? For something that went on for months?

[Rogatum]

But the thing is, that with the car example if the person itself is already so wounded that they might not heal completely again dont you think it would be too much to scold them for that? If they have any responsibility they will already feel horrible because of them being wounded and for the accident itself, going around and blaming them might even send them over the edge. How would it be if they then decide that they are not worth living anymore and kill themselves? (I know a harsh topic) And with abuse, what if the person that got abused was already mentally unstable? Wouldnt that make it worse too? Maybe even make them feel like everyone is better off without them?

There are situations were its fine to point out the mistakes but I believe there are also situations were something like that can make matters worse. Sometimes its just better to support the person instead of butting blames on them. Maybe later, when all is done, when they are over it and on the way to get better, maybe then its time for a talk. But after it happens? No I dont think that would be good.

If someone goes over the edge and takes their own life because blame fell on them, then clearly they did not understand how their actions have an impact on others around them. While not the most popular opinion I have always viewed suicide as a selfish action. Leaving that aside, what I do not understand is why does pointing out mistakes seem to invalidate the help that comes after? Sure it may make the person feel bad, and think hard at what they did but isn't that the whole point? Some may feel what the officer did was unprofessional, but them scolding me made it feel like they viewed me as an individual. They did not come in with empty platitudes and treated me with some fake persona of caring. I mean I guess I just do not see why others think the two are mutually exclusive. I do think both aspects can and should be delivered in the same space, personally I do not think the talk the police had with me would have had the same impact if they had waited until later to tell me. If that makes sense.