Sexual harassment

[AriaFairchild]

So you propose that we continue with sexism and treat males as something to be feared.

"certain people will always prey on the weakness of others"...how did you construe this to "continue with sexism and treat males as something to be feared"? I really can't follow the logic here...

Also, by focusing on males, you seem to imply that females are not capable of "prey[ing] on the weakness of others".

So much for equality.

I am all for equality. We can start with seeing in more female dead bodies on the battlefield. Look at this statistics: in every operation, more than 90% of dead soldiers are males.

This is sexism! It should be 50/50! How can the men dominate in dying! Women should have equal and unhindered rights to die too!

[MoroMurasaki]

They can just ban the abusers/harrasers if it's serious enough, the game will be a far better place without them.

I have no issue with this, but what about interactions that go on outside of the game? More than a small amount of the TMP drama went on in discord or other external methods of comunication and I would even go so far as to say with as calculating as the accused harrasser in that situation comes off (by alleged victim testimony) he would have known what he could and could not get away with saying in an ingame chat.

The issue with SE accepting external proof of "harrassment" swings all the way back around to the fact that the playerbase can't even agree on what constitutes harrassment. If SE would accept discord text or recordings as evidence of harrassment how long would it be before some random offended person reported another player for saying "sorry friendo, your dps just isn't going to let us beat enrage since you're sitting at 2.5k at level 70. Try to beat up on a dummy some more" and trying to get that person banned?

A wealth of issues crop up when SE tries to extend their sphere of influence beyond things they know as certifiably true as well. Someome could screenshot a similar looking au ra to my character and make a discord calling themself Moro Murasaki and say some rude things. SE has no way to prove that is me though, how can they punish me for those actions? The answer is they can't and shouldn't.

I'm all for legitimately abusive people getting in an appropriate amount of trouble for their actions but as good as "yeah ban away, harrassers are evil" might feel to say you have to consider the implications of how such a policy could be implimented.

Let me be clear - if someone is in ingame chat and there were chat logs of them doing all the things the accused harrasser in the TMP story did I say 100% yes ban away because there is indisputable evidence but without something concrete (and honestly with little more than multiple anecdotes) there is no way a ban is justifiable right now.

I am all for equality. We can start with seeing in more female dead bodies on the battlefield. Look at this statistics: in every operation, more than 90% of dead soldiers are males.

This is sexism! It should be 50/50! How can the men dominate in dying! Women should have equal and unhindered rights to die too!

Don't forget about deaths in the workplace and suicide rates. Men dominate those as well. Where is the equality?

[Solarra]

...what about interactions that go on outside of the game?

You are setting up a straw-man. It would be completely unreasonable to expect Square to act on things that happen outside of FFXIV but no one has asked that they do so in this thread (unless I missed something). Square has no control over what happens outside and we already know GMs cannot accept screenies as evidence due to the posibility of them being tampered with.


However, in-game harassment is against the ToS, and given evidence I am absolutely confident GMs do take action and if necessary issue bans.

Edit: I'm not counting Square's own outside events like the Fan-Fest here. I would expect them to take action if something happened at one of those.

[jameseoakes]

I have no issue with this, but what about interactions that go on outside of the game? More than a small amount of the TMP drama went on in discord or other external methods of comunication and I would even go so far as to say with as calculating as the accused harrasser in that situation comes off (by alleged victim testimony) he would have known what he could and could not get away with saying in an ingame chat.

Let me be clear - if someone is in ingame chat and there were chat logs of them doing all the things the accused harrasser in the TMP story did I say 100% yes ban away because there is indisputable evidence but without something concrete (and honestly with little more than multiple anecdotes) there is no way a ban is justifiable right now.

My comments where more in aimed at the people who seemed to be saying that if harnessed the victims should turn the game off.
The TMP case is more complicated as it really does look like a predator using the game and the community to find and groom vulnerable women, this is something that SE needs to have a policy on and take action over. Not sure what they can do but that is probably an issue for the management and legal team.

[QT_Melon]

My comments where more in aimed at the people who seemed to be saying that if harnessed the victims should turn the game.

I should also say that people saying this completely ignores the fact that SE also does events outside the game - be it Streams and Fanfest (Which the victims and the predator also attended).

[KaivaC]

My comments where more in aimed at the people who seemed to be saying that if harnessed the victims should turn the game.
The TMP case is more complicated as it really does look like a predator using the game and the community to find and groom vulnerable women, this is something that SE needs to have a policy on and take action over. Not sure what they can do but that is probably an issue for the management and legal team.

For the most part, I am in agreement with you. Though, the extent to the response that SE should give, I am more on-the-wall about. And I think this would fall more under the NA branch of Square, than it would on the company as a whole. My worry, if SE does decide to respond, brings me back to the whole Koike Incident and how the devs responded to the harassment that happened over that which is still felt today i.e. parsers (this is not a lead-in to a parse debate, so those against or for parsing, please don't turn this thread into that). I feel like the extent of what SE could do would be a global warning through the in-game chat log that they use for event announcements. The TMP situation is just ugly all around. The predator is totally at fault, yes, but because its now become a public spectacle, how the devs will choose to respond if they do at all worries me a little bit.

[QT_Melon]

I think that is why they aren't quick to say anything. I am fine with, but was curious if they do plan to say something. I do think they aren't that callous, and there is also getting it across the various cultural mindsets since this is a global entity

[Mnemyx]

I don't think SE/FFXIV should do anything regarding the TMP issue. The game was used as a medium - just like any other social media website or application. A lot of the interactions also occurred in other mediums, like Discord, Hangouts, and Skype, and one or two in person. And it's rare for those platforms to restrict their users outside of letting the users have control over who they interact with and to whom they share their data that's being stored within the platform's database, so to expect something from SE/FFXIV is a bit much.

However, I do think that whenever harassment (both sexual and not) are reported that they are handled objectively and carefully prior to taking any action. And I think that's all they can really do - address reported issues that occurred on their platform and elevate them to authorities as necessary. And if it's at their events, this wouldn't fall on their jurisdiction either and would/should be elevated to actual legal authorities.

[Mnemyx]

Also, the one incident that I would consider sexual harassment in FFXIV, I reported the user, screenshots and all. A GM promptly contacted me and remained objective as we discussed it. I don't know the outcome at the end of the day, but I've not been bothered by said person. Also helps that he wasn't on the same server.

I acknowledge that my experience is far milder and less intrusive compared to if the person had been in the same FC.

But as a survivor of abuse (sexual, emotional, and physical), it's always going to be in your best interest to remain calm, appear amicable, and keep written logs, as much as I know all you want to do is backlash at the person making you feel cornered. Distance yourself and make clear your intent of closing all lines of communication. From personal experience, legal authorities and strangers peeking into the situation will tend to dismiss you otherwise, and that's the worst thing you can do for your cause and sanity at a time that's already grueling.

[QT_Melon]

I don't think SE/FFXIV should do anything regarding the TMP issue.

However, I do think that whenever harassment (both sexual and not) are reported that they are handled objectively and carefully prior to taking any action. And I think that's all they can really do - address reported issues that occurred on their platform and elevate them to authorities as necessary. And if it's at their events, this wouldn't fall on their jurisdiction either and would/should be elevated to actual legal authorities.

I disagree a slight bit. Doing something isn't saying "Ban people involved" but they can make an official statement on the matter. That's why I said again I'm curious if they will address it. I think ignoring it when they talk about their community kinda puts them bad light in the sense that it seems like they're ignoring it. I mean they talk about the community and activities their game has influenced, I don't think it's right to have it both ways - where you don't at least state something when there are bad aspects that result as well.

As far as taking actions for players, I again state and hope that maybe they do have a special task force of GMs more qualified to handle a sensitive matter. I think goes a long way, I mean it makes it look like they are looking a bit more at ways to know a player can talk with someone more qualified to handle this - than just a volunteer/regular player that happens to work for them. I don't expect them to get too involved when its outside the game, but staying silent and pretending it doesn't happen when you know this is a game that has a very chatty community in the game and out of it - isn't helpful.

HOWEVER, I do want them to take their time if they do present a statement, which as I said prior - I am sure they are.