Sexual harassment

[AriaFairchild]

Wow! you seem to be taking victim-blaming to a whole new level here. So, are you really saying that if someone I care about gets abused, I not only get to admonish their poor decision-making but I can also cry, 'poor me!' because their being hurt is distressing for me!?!
I think such a reaction would be insensitive, self-obsessed and entirely inappropriate. Shaming someone because they have been abused is not only unfair, it's pretty abusive in itself.
The worst thing is, this lets the abuser off the hook. You are focusing entirely on the victim and what you think they did wrong. Implying people are just stupid if they let harassment or abuse happen to them (and now selfish too, because of the distress it could cause their friends and family) helps nobody apart from those who harass and abuse. Making excuses for these people simply allows them to continue their behaviour unchecked.

Victim blaming seems to be everyone's favorite buzzword nowadays, because condemning the abuser and calling out the victim for their poor decisions are not mutually exclusive. The abuser must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, however, the victim needs to be reminded of their decision making.

You are just being overtly dramatic, nobody is crying "poor me" here, nobody is letting the abuser off the hook here. If you think telling your kid they are being irresponsible is being insensitive, and that their irresponsibility is affecting others, you are doing a poor job raising children. Children don't exist in a vacuum, they need to grow up to be responsible adults too and to make wise decisions too. Part of maturity is realizing that your actions affect others, and by not letting them reflecting on that perspective, they are going to make foolish decisions again.

[jameseoakes]

Now this line of thinking is dangerous, because kids need to come to realize that their decisions affect other people as well, it's not just about them. What about their parents, their friends, their relatives who actually care about them? you need to make her see that she does not exist in a vacuum and there are people who care for her and her well-being. She needs to be told the consequences of her poor decisions, so that she can think twice as hard in the future about any rash decision she may make, because it's not only her that is affected by it.

This sounds like a horrible attitude to take, and as Solarra says this be moving all the blame on to the victim. Also you should take her name out as it's probably naming and shaming

[Rogatum]

My question is why does it need to be one or the other? One can still reprimand a person for their actions while consoling and helping them through the next stages. When I was mugged, you know the first thing the cops asked me after checked to see if I was okay? "What the hell were you doing this late in this area, let alone taking cash out in front of people?" I was reprimanded for my actions, they told me it could have gone a lot worse, I could have been beaten badly or even worse killed. The police did not choose to help me for my foolishness and ignorance, but they did not sweep it under the rug either. They were sure to let me know that I was naive and extremely ignorant of the world. This lesson taught me a lot and I am thankfully for those officers,

So once again why does it have to be one or the other? I do not think anyone is saying we should put all the blame on the victim and not help them, but point remains certain actions lead to a point due to the actions of the victim. Now we cannot say if the outcome would have changed if they did not make the same choices, but who knows how differently it could have been though. Also regarding the example about the kidnapped child, what makes that case different then the Harambe one? At the core both happened because the parents was inattentive. Why is one consider victim blaming and the other is viewed as shitty parents?

Because it literally achieves nothing. The victim already blames themselves.

I learned a lot from the police that reprimanded me after I was mugged. I got a lot out of that talk with the officers. The talk I had with them taught me that I have personal responsibility for my actions, I cannot control those around me but I can control my own actions and I was taught that each choice we make in life has inherent risk, and if I am not comfortable with the potential risks it is probably best I do not do said action. I am glad those officers did not sugar coat what could have happened, how my choices not only impact myself and those around me and my family. I think it did achieve a great deal, wouldn't you? Do not get me wrong in the moment I was shaken up, and upset with the officers in the moment. After I slept on it I realized what they did was to help me. While I did not thank them in the moment, next day I went to the precinct to thank them. I get it can be scary to get scolded when you already feel like shit, but in what world should that mean the scolding was unnecessary or does not achieve anything, or worst of all invalidate the help? One can both reprimand and help a person through the next stages they are not mutually exclusive.

Edit: My response the comment below, seemed silly to use a post for such a quick response.

Look, I'm gonna assume you probably already knew you have personal responsibility to yourself. Everyone already knows that. It's likely that you already knew that there'd be an inherent risk in withdrawing money from the ATM at that time. To be honest, you would have to be extremely dense to not already know that.

When the tire in my brother's car blew out because I didn't remember to put air in it, it didn't matter that I didn't remember that and it didn't matter that he should have replaced the tire a long time ago. While we were sitting there berating each other for the things we had done wrong, what really mattered was that I was stuck on a rural highway with a blown out tire. We knew we were each at fault in this situation, but it wasn't important. All we were doing was wasting time. The committer of a crime is the person at fault for the crime. We all know that. What did it matter that you could have taken steps to prevent that from happening to you? You made a mistake, it happened, but you didn't do anything wrong. You were perfectly within your rights to visit that ATM and withdraw cash at night, and frankly, the police were very unprofessional to bother with reprimanding you for doing something legal when they should have been focused on the person who mugged you.

That is the thing though they still helped me throughout the process after they reprimanded me. They did their job, sure they could have worded it nicer, and consoled me more but does not invalidate what they said. While I knew their was a risk with drawing from the ATM, I will be honest and did not think how that action would ripple and what kind of impact it would have on others around me not just myself. In the moment I will be honest I put all the blame on the person that mugged me, I kept asking myself why me, why me. I refused to take personal responsibility for my actions in that moment. I felt as if it was the worlds fault and not my own. If that makes sense. Now if you the scolding halts progress then I understand where you are coming from, but that normally only happens when a person is not receptive to the information being told. That is when conflict comes about, and progress comes to a halt. In the moment I did wonder why I was getting scolded for making a executing poor judgment, since the ways the cops put in the end that one mistake could have been my last. If that makes sense.

Personally I thought they were extremely professional and helpful despite the fact in the moment I was annoyed at the fact I was getting told by these officers what could have been. They were not wrong.

[Rubiss]

Again, and I can't stress this enough, you are not only not an adult at 18, you're not even close.
Your judgement is definitively unsound. You're brain has yet to fully mature and with that immature state comes compromised judgment, logic, and impulse faculties.

You are especially vulnerable to manipulation at that stage of life, as not only are you immature neurologically speaking, your brain is also under hormonal assault, making things even more tempestuous.

You can't know how you'd have reacted, you can't hypothesize about this. That girl went through it. You did not.

Have some goddamn compassion.

You are an adult by 18. That's just the definition in many countries.

[WaffleFaerie]

You aren't groomed from an online game, and 18 is an adult. You know better at 18.

You are an adult by 18. That's just the definition in many countries.

This isn't really @Rubiss, I just pulled your post for context. Legal definitions are what they are, but we don't have to like them, and it's possible you agree on that point. Some "adult" things, in some places, you can't do until you're 21. (booze, weed, running for election)

Also, (and this is @Zsolen, double underlined) when I was 18, I would've made a terrible adult, because I didn't know half of what normal 18-year-olds are "supposed" to know about the world, I just happened to grow up very sheltered. Like, the whole OldBear situation would have gone completely over my head at that age. I didn't speak the language. (I still don't, but now it's by choice.)

Double also, Anatha's right; the rational part of the human brain isn't fully developed until our mid-twenties. If I was Queen of the World, I'd raise the legal age of everything to 25. And then I would perish by regicide.

[Reinha]

Double also, Anatha's right; the rational part of the human brain isn't fully developed until our mid-twenties. If I was Queen of the World, I'd raise the legal age of everything to 25. And then I would perish by regicide.

I don't think being an adult is only about being fully developed, but being developed enough that your parents shouldn't have to take responsibility for your actions anymore. A child behaving badly, committing crime or doing stupid things is the parents' fault. When it's adults doing those things it's their own fault. That does not mean young adults can't make any mistakes. It just means their parents aren't the ones responsible for allowing those mistakes to happen.

In a hypothetical world where 18-year-olds are still considered children, if their parents are going to be held responsible for the well being of their children then they should be given the right to monitor their kid's internet activities to keep them safe from predators. I don't know any 18 to 24-year-olds who would be willing to submit to that. It's hard enough to monitor younger teenagers who already at that age seek individuality, privacy and independence.

[WaffleFaerie]

I don't think being an adult is only about being fully developed, but being developed enough that your parents shouldn't have to take responsibility for your actions anymore. A child behaving badly, committing crime or doing stupid things is the parents' fault. When it's adults doing those things it's their own fault.

I'm sorry, I was being a little light-hearted and silly with that comment. It's a delicate job, bringing levity into such a gloomy thread about such a grave topic, and perhaps that was a mistake on my part. I wasn't really trying to address the legitimacy of legal age of majority or criminal responsibility, I just wanted to refute the idea presented by Zsolen that an 18-year-old should just "know better" than to be a victim of an online abuser simply by virtue of being 18. I can't say I would have known better at that age, that's all.

You still know better by 18 and you were an adult at 18. You would know something is wrong. Growing up sheltered doesn't remove basic instinct.

I really don't feel like Googling missing and murdered girls over 18 to use as evidence against this, so I'm just going to exit the thread.

[MoroMurasaki]

@MoroMurasaki: Yes that is still at least fine but I would still look out for each case and see if that person can take it right now or not. Sometimes its maybe better to only support them and maybe talk with them about this later, when they are less emotional impacted by this. People just need to remember that not everyone will take everything the same way and for some this might be too much.

I think this is the core of our disagreement - I don't believe in sugarcoating the truth when it comes to something this important. Facts don't care about your feelings and the fact of the matter is if you engage in behavior like what has come out of the TMP story (specifically sending nude photos or video to someone else, much less someome you've never even met) you have made a huge mistake even if nothing bad comes of it.

If we suspend disbelief and only listen to their evidence it paints a picture of these women allowing themselves to be bullied and extorted over a spot in a Free Company or at a glorified fansite/blog. No matter how despicable one finds the actions of (the bad guy whos name we can't say) if you can step back and look at things objectively you will see he would have been completely neutered if the women he targeted stood up for themselves at the first signs of abuse.

For what feels like the hundredth time I find myself reiterating that if (hes sorta like Voldemort in that way) did everything he was accused of he is a disgusting person and I never want anything to do with him; none of that changes the fact that he is still out there though and is likely not the only of his kind. Hell, he got caught! He probably isn't even the cleverest person in the game doing these things. We can sit here and focus on comforting a few people who made some poor choices or we can learn from this experience and hopefully make it harder for him or predators like him to prey on players in the future. I think the choice is obvious.

Personal accountability. I don't know why that is such a taboo concept and I feel like it can never be stressed enough. No one is ever "unable to handle" being told they screwed up and coddling them only sets them up to face the same things again in the future. That isn't what I wanted after my sexual assault and I doubt it's what the TMP victims want either.

Careful, this stuff is too politically incorrect for this forum to handle. But before that, can you pass me the great commune tea, by the whey?

Everything is too politically incorrect for these forums it seems...

[Alleo]

I think this is the core of our disagreement - I don't believe in sugarcoating the truth when it comes to something this important. Facts don't care about your feelings and the fact of the matter is if you engage in behavior like what has come out of the TMP story (specifically sending nude photos or video to someone else, much less someome you've never even met) you have made a huge mistake even if nothing bad comes of it.

Because often those vicitms are already at a bad place in their life before this happens, trust a person for months, do one mistake (like you only really need to sent one picture) and then are confronted with other people they trusted that said that this is just drama and they should just take it, have the abuser say to them that he/she might kill himself if they go and thanks to all the actions over time they might not have many people left that they can confine into. All of this while already suffering from depression and other attacks. IMO it is not good to go to them and start to blame them for it too. You dont need to sugarcoat anything, you simply just need to be there for them and if that all is over, you can still talk about the mistakes. But imo not when the person is already at their worst place.

Also again its always easy from the outside and as a hindsight to point out the bad stuff. But those people often dont even notice these things because they trust the person and because the person tries everything to have their trust.

We should not try to and say they are 100% to blame, but is the message we want to send to people is that there was nothing they could have done that could have prevented the situation?

We can go around and try to teach those that did not have anything happen to them, how to avoid it. Give them the signs that could help them identify it and we could also reach out our hand and say that people can come to us if they need advise and not react like its just drama and funny. That would help beforehand but will never 100% be secure. But what does it help the person that already went through this? They have already learned the hard way how it happened and its like someone touching fire. Once you did that, you will probably never do that again and also know much better than any other person why it happened. (Because there is no one true way to solve this, since people are so different.) So that person imo already knows quite good what happened, what they did do wrong and will not want to go through that again. Thus the talk about "how you should not get into that situation" is first already too late and probably just talking about stuff that they know already. Thus imo its better to just give them a helping hand, because the time afterwards is probably one of the hardest. And if that is all done and they are at a better health, you could still talk to them if they want to.

[Zsolen]

Also, (and this is @Zsolen, double underlined) when I was 18, I would've made a terrible adult, because I didn't know half of what normal 18-year-olds are "supposed" to know about the world, I just happened to grow up very sheltered. Like, the whole OldBear situation would have gone completely over my head at that age. I didn't speak the language. (I still don't, but now it's by choice.)

You still know better by 18 and you were an adult at 18. You would know something is wrong. Growing up sheltered doesn't remove basic instinct.

Also why do people keeping talking about this other instance, in relation to the adult thing? Someone straight up said there was a girl that knew she was in a bad spot, blocked someone, and then unblocked him following peer pressure.