Sexual harassment

[MoroMurasaki]

You teach them exactly that, rather than tell women and victims how to not be abused, which sadly seems to be the more popular approach to the matter. You (general) can also stop going easy when people are found guilty of abuse or harassment. "But he's such a good boy from a good home and he's a star student in college!" Uh, if the court just found him guilty of rape, I don't think he's such a good boy, and the punishment should reflect that. But because it's not only hard to get the guilty verdict, but the sentences are also laughable, people learn that they can get away with it. There need to be harsher consequences to these actions.



Uh, yes? "Someone with that mindset", how did they reach that mindset in the first place? No one's born with any mindset. They're raised and groomed into it. If you teach a boy from a young age that girls are people too just like they are (#INeedFeminismBecause), if you stop saying "boys will be boys" when they hurt someone, if you hold boys accountable to their actions from a young age instead of just expecting them to know better when they hit a certain age and then go easy on them when they don't, then they will know better when they grow up. They'll know women aren't there just for their sexual pleasure; they'll know that if they hurt someone, they'll be punished for it and not get a reduced sentence, so they'll be much less likely to commit the crime; they'll be decent human beings.



What are you going to do, teach yourself how to clean up after your dog, or get the dog used to only doing its stuff on the paper, and then outside?
My attacker was someone I've known for over ten years and was one of my best friends. The only thing I can "learn" from this is to become a hermit and never form bonds with anyone else ever again because I don't know who will end up betraying me next.
Imagine if instead, we tried to teach people not to assault and harass.

Every single adult is responsible for their own safety. Take that responsibility and be empowered by it rather than casting it off as someone else's problem.

As a rape survivor I wish that my mom or teachers or anyone had put more of a focus on personal accountability when I was growing up, maybe then I would have seen any of the plethora of warning signs when I was putting myself in harms way or been better prepared to protect myself.

I place 100% of the guilt for my situation squarely on the shoulders of the man who assaulted me. That doesn't mean that I still can't hope that girls growing up now learn better than I did to follow basic common sense safety tips.

At the end of the day there are some really sick people out in the world who want to hurt others in awful ways and the idea that there is any alternative to personal responsibilty and protection absolutely disgusts me. You don't teach a monster to not be a monster, you learn how to fight back.

I just couldn't leave this post unopposed, it's too harmful. Cheers.

Edit: Also I was distracted at first but the idea of subjecting people to "dont sexually assault others" courses or something is ludicrous. You can't teach someome with that kind of mental instability not to act on it and the way this feels aimed at men and boys just feels really wrong and sexist.

[BillyKaplan]

Every single adult is responsible for their own safety. Take that responsibility and be empowered by it rather than casting it off as someone else's problem.

I ask again, how do you cope with this when the person assaulting you is someone you've known for forever and trusted? How do you make yourself safe in that situation? Yes, it's important to not leave your drinks unattented in bars, and travel with a friend, and have people on your phone you can contact. There's a lot a person can do. But there's a limit to that as well, and acknowledging it isn't casting it off as someone else's problem. It's acknowledging a problem and the fact there's a limit to how much you can do on your own.

At the end of the day there are some really sick people out in the world who want to hurt others in awful ways

Ah ha. And this is where our views on the matter differ. I don't see people who assault and abuse and rape as sick. Are none of them sick in one way or another? Of course they are, it's nigh impossible for any sub-demographic to not have sub-groups mirroring the larger demographic. But, sadly, the guy who assaulted me was very much sane. He knew exactly what he was doing, he just neglected to ask for consent before touching. And he didn't see what was wrong with doing it while he was married, with his wife being a friend of mine at the time too. A moron? Yes. Socially inept? Probably. But he was sane. He was mentally stable, healthy, and very much capable of making his own decisions. He just made a very, very bad one.

I just couldn't leave this post unopposed, it's too harmful.

So is the misconception that anyone who performs any such misdeed is inherently sick in some way. As media likes to remind us, oftentimes the perpetrators come from good homes, are very good people otherwise, do well in school, etc. The only thing such a stance does is pose a threat to non-violent people who suffer from actual mental conditions and illnesses.

[Rogatum]

You teach them exactly that, rather than tell women and victims how to not be abused, which sadly seems to be the more popular approach to the matter. You (general) can also stop going easy when people are found guilty of abuse or harassment. "But he's such a good boy from a good home and he's a star student in college!" Uh, if the court just found him guilty of rape, I don't think he's such a good boy, and the punishment should reflect that. But because it's not only hard to get the guilty verdict, but the sentences are also laughable, people learn that they can get away with it. There need to be harsher consequences to these actions.



Uh, yes? "Someone with that mindset", how did they reach that mindset in the first place? No one's born with any mindset. They're raised and groomed into it. If you teach a boy from a young age that girls are people too just like they are (#INeedFeminismBecause), if you stop saying "boys will be boys" when they hurt someone, if you hold boys accountable to their actions from a young age instead of just expecting them to know better when they hit a certain age and then go easy on them when they don't, then they will know better when they grow up. They'll know women aren't there just for their sexual pleasure; they'll know that if they hurt someone, they'll be punished for it and not get a reduced sentence, so they'll be much less likely to commit the crime; they'll be decent human beings.



What are you going to do, teach yourself how to clean up after your dog, or get the dog used to only doing its stuff on the paper, and then outside?
My attacker was someone I've known for over ten years and was one of my best friends. The only thing I can "learn" from this is to become a hermit and never form bonds with anyone else ever again because I don't know who will end up betraying me next.
Imagine if instead, we tried to teach people not to assault and harass.

Teaching people to respect others, does not change the fact certain people in this world will prey on the weakness of others. No one asking people to become hermits but what people are saying is that everyone should understand that everything comes with inherent risk factors. In the end the only actions we can control are our own, providing children with the tool and information required to mitigate the risk factors goes a long way. Teaching children what they should do if they were raped or sexual harassed. To be honest, growing up not once was I ever told what someone should do after they were raped. Or what steps to take if you feel you are a victim of abuse, what steps to take if you are currently in a abusive relationship, and most importantly what are the signs of abuse and manipulation. These are things we should be teaching since these are things we can control. We cannot control the behavior of others. At the core I think you just have more faith in other people then I do, so I doubt we will ever understand where either of us are coming from. After I got mugged I developed the mindset what steps can I take to try and mitigate what happens to me. I tend to focus on the aspects of life I can control, not the behavior of others. If that makes sense.

[Anatha]

Again, and I can't stress this enough, you are not only not an adult at 18, you're not even close.
Your judgement is definitively unsound. You're brain has yet to fully mature and with that immature state comes compromised judgment, logic, and impulse faculties.

You are especially vulnerable to manipulation at that stage of life, as not only are you immature neurologically speaking, your brain is also under hormonal assault, making things even more tempestuous.

You can't know how you'd have reacted, you can't hypothesize about this. That girl went through it. You did not.

Have some goddamn compassion.

[AriaFairchild]

Have some goddamn compassion.

I'll show her compassion, after chastising her for her immaturity/foolishness. You're not magically absolved of your responsibilities to your own damn self just because you're at that "tender" age. That's not how you teach kids to be responsible.

[Melichoir]

I typically ignore arguments that resort to "Have compassion!"

Because the inference is that we dont.

You know whats compassionate? Slapping someone over the head when they do something stupid, so you teach them the lesson not to do that thing again. Its more important to ensure you teach someone they screwed up adn to avoid doing it again, than to shout about "Oh, theyre just young and foolish and didnt know better!" The former makes them more aware and better prepped to deal with things in the future. The latter absolves them of responsibility, denying them the opportunity to learn from their mistake by brushing said mistake aside as a "foolish thing" outside their control.

[Corfish]

Snip

There's no point in admonishing them, because if you had ever actually talked to a survivor you would see they blame themselves first. Nothing you say can admonish them more than they have already done so themselves. They already hate themselves for falling into that trap, this is why therapy is so important, to teach them it ISN'T their fault first, because you shouldn't victim blame.

Like... imagine someone's baby getting kidnapped, and you go "Whelp, should've locked the window huh? Sorrt, just some tough love!" That parent probably already wants to die, and stating the obvious isn't helping.

[Melichoir]

snip

Maybe I was a bit blunt and tactless in the headslap, but I wasnt saying "Tough love, sucks to suck!" and not give support or help. I was attempting to illustrate that yeah, you need to be ensuring when people make mistakes that they know the lesson. Cause Trauma, often enough, distorts peoples perceptions of the situation, and can leave people fixating on the wrong aspects.


This is not only why people who get help dont just get told "Its all better and its not your fault," but help people unpack the entirety of the situation. To not only understand yeah, theyre a victim of something, but also what actually lead to the situation. Getting to that isnt easy, cause you cant just say "Welp, this is why. Youre a dummy." Getting htem to look at something and be like "Ok, this was a bad judgement call, and heres why I made that call, and what can I do with it going forward" is what is necessary. That doesnt happen overnight or instantly, Nor is it getting the person to say "Its all my fault. " Its a tricky dance between understanding what lead to what and self blame. Its the appropriate way to go rather than the current option I see far to often. The "You did nothing wrong, youre a victim, you dont have to change or evaluate your actions, the world needs to change so you dont have to."

Its a fairy tale way of looking at the world that relieves all responsibility from the victim. They dont have to learn, or change, or address something. No, its the world who has to be nicer. This doesnt help victims or potential victims.

[Miyha]

Its a fairy tale way of looking at the world that relieves all responsibility from the victim. They dont have to learn, or change, or address something. No, its the world who has to be nicer. This doesnt help victims or potential victims.

Just quoting this because it really is something profound that I only realized after the extensive trauma therapy I've had to go through, not just from the relationship I mentioned above.

To supplement that, you'll notice a pattern where a lot of people who get taken advantage of by predators like the aforementioned "prominent community figure" also have their own mental health struggles and other issues that make them prime targets. They have a lot of faults, and it's these faults that make them easy targets for abuse and manipulation. Sometimes one doesn't even realize it's a problem until they're put into the scenario of a relationship like that, experience that kind of trauma, then are plopped into trauma therapy; I promise you, your therapist will (or should, if they're doing their job correctly) make you own your sh*t and work on cleaning up your side of the fence as a major part of recovery.

It's not anyone's fault when they're victims of abuse; but they do have to take a step back, look at why they got themselves into that situation, why they stayed, and what they can do differently to avoid similar instances in the future. With the insight they gain, perhaps they could help prevent someone else's suffering as well. I know that's what I try to do.

[Solarra]

...kids need to come to realize that their decisions affect other people as well, it's not just about them. What about their parents, their friends, their relatives who actually care about them?

Wow! you seem to be taking victim-blaming to a whole new level here. So, are you really saying that if someone I care about gets abused, I not only get to admonish their poor decision-making but I can also cry, 'poor me!' because their being hurt is distressing for me!?!
I think such a reaction would be insensitive, self-obsessed and entirely inappropriate. Shaming someone because they have been abused is not only unfair, it's pretty abusive in itself.
The worst thing is, this lets the abuser off the hook. You are focusing entirely on the victim and what you think they did wrong. Implying people are just stupid if they let harassment or abuse happen to them (and now selfish too, because of the distress it could cause their friends and family) helps nobody apart from those who harass and abuse. Making excuses for these people simply allows them to continue their behaviour unchecked.