Trying to understand the complaints about DRK

[Hierro]

There are more references I could dig up but hopefully that should suffice.

And why should the opinions of those so-called "WAR mains" matter to me? Neither seem to raid and one of the quotes was even made before the guy was lvl 70. In fact, Duelle has been quoted to say in one of those threads that Upheaval isn't even strong! How laughable is that? Again, most of these threads are small in page number. The only one with a significant page count was the one that addresses the stance dance penalty. THIS thread alone surpasses many of the silly threads you linked, combined. It goes to show how few people thought about WAR as being in dire need of a DV clone.

Here's a quote from a WAR main with more authority.

WAR mains never really complained nearly as much as most DRK mains do despite DRK being present in 75% of WF clears at the exclusion of WAR.

[WhyAmIHere]

And why should the opinions of those so-called "WAR mains" matter to me? Neither seem to raid and one of the quotes was even made before the guy was lvl 70. In fact, Duelle has been quoted to say in one of those threads that Upheaval isn't even strong! How laughable is that? Again, most of these threads are small in page number. The only one with a significant page count was the one that addresses the stance dance penalty. THIS thread alone surpasses many of the silly threads you linked, combined. It goes to show how few people thought about WAR as being in dire need of a DV clone.

Here's a quote from a WAR main with more authority.

>more authority
The only authority I'd attribute to you'd be the forum contrarian, really. And for the love of [thing], stop using WF races as a metric to determine class viability. ANY class can clear ANY content, that's what this game is sold on. WF clears shouldn't be used to determine a classes viability, otherwise any class that can't get a WF clear is very obviously not good enough and needs more buffs. >_> At those levels, it's the player behind the avatar, not the job, that's going to matter.
If you wanna use clears to determine a classes usability and acceptance, what should be looked at is the % of all clears that contain what class, and as has been seen on fflogs (already a small sampling to begin with of the playerbase) there just aren't as many DRK's clearing compared to WAR/PLD.

The OF is already filled with a small % of people who play the game, of which how small a % can even say to take part in end-game content? Trying to form an argument from a percent of a percent of the total playerbase is going to be flawed. Enough WAR *players must've made an impact, throughout NA, JP, and EU, *across all different avenues (be it in-game, here, reddit, other fan forums, etc etc), to have warranted such a rapid response from the dev team, and I'm basing that entirely on how long it took from 4.0's launch to see any class specific adjustments to be made to WAR, compared to the time it took to make adjustments to DRK. (this doesn't include the generic "increased enmity gain" that all tanks received, as all tanks got that)

[Hierro]

The only authority I'd attribute to you'd be the forum contrarian, really.

If calling me contrarian instead of addressing or even seeing the reason behind my arguments helps you sleep at night, more power to you.Percentage of clears is a lame argument, because it's really a symptom of what class stigma has done. Uneducated fear mongering and unwarranted whining is why clear percentages are low.

It's flawed to say the devs "must've" looked at every single avenue to collect opinions on WAR to warrant a rapid response. Again, the amount of complaints never reached DRK levels. Were that the case, the devs would have turned DRK into jesus at this point. Thankfully, their view seems to be more in line with mine. I guess SE is filled with contrarians too.

[WhyAmIHere]

If calling me contrarian instead of addressing or even seeing the reason behind my arguments helps you sleep at night, more power to you.Percentage of clears is a lame argument, because it's really a symptom of what class stigma has done. Uneducated fear mongering and unwarranted whining is why clear percentages are low.

It's flawed to say the devs "must've" looked at every single avenue to collect opinions on WAR to warrant a rapid response. Again, the amount of complaints never reached DRK levels. Were that the case, the devs would have turned DRK into jesus at this point. Thankfully, their view seems to be more in line with mine. I guess SE is filled with contrarians too.

I'm not going to address your arguments because you have none to make. Your whole points can be summed up in "this thing I like is fine, this thing I don't care about doesn't matter."
*That or you're willfully ignorant to the world around you. Either or.

[Valdegarde]

*That or you're willfully ignorant to the world around you. Either or.

He's been on record saying he does this just because he enjoys Dark Knights struggling, and with his weird memetic tier remarks and egocentric attitude I figured he's a troll for a while now, saved myself some grief by ignoring it.

[Hierro]

I'm not going to address your arguments because you have none to make. Your whole points can be summed up in "this thing I like is fine, this thing I don't care about doesn't matter."
*That or you're willfully ignorant to the world around you. Either or.

Ah, yes. Let's just ignore every time I've provided reason and facts for my arguments.

He's been on record saying he does this just because he enjoys Dark Knights struggling, and with his weird memetic tier remarks and egocentric attitude I figured he's a troll for a while now, saved myself some grief by ignoring it.

I'm pretty sure there's no record of me saying such a thing, I just checked my post history! But why would I troll players of a job that I as well play, and at that play enthusiastically? Makes no sense. Maybe it's that I have legitimate reasons to believe this job is pretty good and wish others would see that as well.

[WhyAmIHere]

Ah, yes. Let's just ignore every time I've provided reason and facts for my arguments.

I'm pretty sure there's no record of me saying such a thing, I just checked my post history! But why would I troll players of a job that I as well play, and at that play enthusiastically? Makes no sense. Maybe it's that I have legitimate reasons to believe this job is pretty good and wish others would see that as well.

faulty reasoning, sure. even an incorrect opinion is still an opinion.

and, here's the rub. I play DRK because I like it. I enjoy the aesthetic, and I know it's a good class. Does that mean I am blind to its faults? no. it's that because i find such a joy from it that the faults stand out more. It's when you start to analyze how it plays and see how poorly it's designed, only once you get a strong sense of feel for it. Why does it get it's gauge so late? Why does the gauge not augment your core gameplay loop outside of letting you do what you were already doing when you get it? why is the first skill that interacts with it only add time to BW/BP? Why does quietus exist, and why does it even have a DA effect if all that does is increase the damage? Why didn't quietus give back MP at launch if you nerfed DRK's MP generation via BP? Why does bloodspiller have 4 damn potencies? Why is TBN locked behind the lvl70 job quest reward? Why was a key component of a new resource mechanic locked behind the final level job quest when no other job has that limitation? Why does TBN have such a huge impact on the gauge for that gauge to have minor interplay within itself and only slightly towards the rest of your kit? Why give a key element of your gameplay loop as a DRK in TBN at the very end of your leveling, giving you no real time to learn how it operates and what intricacies there are to it? Why does only one of our two combos generate this new resource? Why do we only have two combos to choose from? How can you justify that TBN is just as much a utility to a party when compared to SiO and [PLD's entire kit] when TBN costs a resource to even use where it's peers do not? Why is there such a twisted reliance on the interplay of resources? Why does my "you don't die" skill kill me? Why is my HP gain locked behind a stance? why did it take so long for any sort of changes to be made to the class when looked at for it's peers? (not even gonna touch on how RDM remains unchanged as of 4.0) How did this all not get caught or brought up or addressed or anything when you were designing 4.0 to start with?
I'm sure theres more reasons, and even in this long-winded nonsense I've taken some out due to recent changes. But, i'm sleep addled.

You can have your reasons for liking it, that's fine. I and many others will not agree that "WORLD FIRST" is a valid nor strong one. Strawmanning an argument and resting your whole case on a single encounter when looking at the overall picture loses the forest for the trees. UCoB and UwU might have mechanics and content that favors DRK over WAR/PLD, but that one instance does not nullify every other instance in the slightest. Good players will be good regardless of job, bad players the same. A bad class played well tends to do better than a good class played poorly, within margin of error.

[Mahrze]

Again, the amount of complaints never reached DRK levels. Were that the case, the devs would have turned DRK into jesus at this point.

That's because Warrior complaints only need to have more than 2 posts to be addressed. It's a meme at this point.