Trying to understand the complaints about DRK

[Hierro]

Also, the fight doesn't seem to have any raid wide dmg that hit hard enough to make divine ciel or the war one mandatory

Name just ONE (1) fight where DV and SiO are absolutely mandatory. Protip: YOU CAN'T!

[shao32]

Name just ONE (1) fight where DV and SiO are absolutely mandatory. Protip: YOU CAN'T!

you can LB cheesing with DV and SiO so are mandatory in any speedrunning comp, for no mention they value is more high on progresion specially on first weeks where shielding party reduce the risk of someone dying with the low HP the raid have due gear but that's not mandatory at all but very very helpfull.

[Mahrze]

It doesn't mean drk is perfect, but it does show that it is viable and puts some perspective on 'how bad' drk is. Being worse than the other two tanks doesn't toss the class in the dumpster when the degree of which it is behind is very slight. If it can clear the toughest of the tough fights and not hold back an A list team from being world 1st multiple times, then the job isn't THAT bad when look at performance. Multiple/back to back world 1sts don't mean drk has zero issues of any kind, but it does show that the issues (performance wise) are not terribly impactful. If they were, they would show cracks at the high end optimization in these kinds of attempts. Performance power is also a very different issue than 'fun' or 'clunky' complaints. But when a job can keep up with the best of the best, then it is a functional, viable job. Aesthetics are a whole different ball game.

I don't think you need to go verbose to state what is a given. The fact that 2-3 people here keep posting "DRK is fine" and then say "it has 2 world firsts on ultimate" is at the end a champion belt for the player, not the job. Because the player likes playing the class and knows how to make due with its weaknesses just like everyone who plays the game looks to do the same.

But yeah, lets devolve this conversation to the usual "but x job is fine because it cleared this" or "maybe the job isn't for you" topic; since that's all we're capable of doing.

[Megguido]

I must admit I have some trouble understanding all the complains.

DRK hasn't as much damage and party support than WAR and PLD, that's a fact. In return, it has a very powerful defensive kit and everyone seems to be forgetting this.

Even if it is a little bit below the 2 other tanks, it still is capable of clearing content just as fine. Even the most difficult content ever released on this game. People make it sound like you're going with a handicap if you choose a DRK instead of a WAR. Those differences are so small that you wouldn't even notice it, if the hardest content you do is dungeons and 24-players raids.

People are clearing extreme primals, savage raids, hell, even ultimate coil / ultima, and tell you that DRK is fine. Not perfect, fine. Though we still argue over 200 DPS difference and how that would fix DRK's lack of utility (Spoilers: it won't fix anything).

At this point, we would need a complete rework of the job to change its gameplay. Because it's DRK's gameplay that bothers people (DA spam ?), not viability or balance. Current DRK iteration is perfectly viable in all the content, and really close to the 2 other tanks balance-wise.

[Aana]

I don't think you need to go verbose to state what is a given. The fact that 2-3 people here keep posting "DRK is fine" and then say "it has 2 world firsts on ultimate" is at the end a champion belt for the player, not the job. Because the player likes playing the class and knows how to make due with its weaknesses just like everyone who plays the game looks to do the same.

But yeah, lets devolve this conversation to the usual "but x job is fine because it cleared this" or "maybe the job isn't for you" topic; since that's all we're capable of doing.

Because like most things, the truth is in the middle, and heaven forbid the internet acknowledge nuance. Anyone who waltzes in saying "Drk 1st=Drk fine" is being 1 dimensional and dumb. Similarly, you cant counter a dumb idea with another dumb idea by saying "World 1st means nothing" because that's absurd too. If drk was a serious liability, then it would have held back a group that made IRL sacrifices just to attempt it, and that wouldn't last long. World 1st point out that the extreme end of "Drk is broken dumpster trash" is BS. World 1st isn't a club to bludgeon people with to stfu, and you cant just ignore it claiming 100% player skill. It defines a lower bound to 'how bad' a job is. Not so bad it cant be world 1st.

[shao32]

snip.

gameplay is what bother many people yes, but balance wise idk you but for me being the worse on everything feels bad even if is a small diference its just feels bad you dont excell on anything, not even comparable, you are literally worse, yes you can clear content, yes you can be 1º world if you want, but that never will change when you look other tanks they make they raids go much more smoother thanks to all what they have, balance dont have to mean being meta either, WAR and PLD can be perfectly the speedrun meta as are right now but if DRK just have the best dps then yeah you see you are not meta for reasons but you have a niche as a tank, something that make you feel unique.

you say a powerful defensive kit but DRK dont excell much more that the other 2 in that field either, if we put a WAR using innerbeast they mitigate more that DRK, but thats not the matter, looks like some forget mitigation in this game at certain point is meaningless, specially personal mitigation, and yeah drk can mitigate ST busters pretty well now but for what?, we dont save healers GCD for that, we have bigger cushion on magic fights but is nothing that the other 2 cant handle either for no mention we dont have any pasive mitigation-self healing outside of grit (i dont count sole survivior bcs you have little control to sinc the heal and abysall is aoe).

gameplay wise DRK is pretty funtional, most ppl like the old HW style me include but actual gameplay is not specially clunky at all compared to other jobs,i actually like it, the gameplay argument is reinforced by the balance situation, if DRK was perfect balance betwen the other 2 gameplay complains will be less severe bcs we will pass from i work a lot more harder to do less to i work harder but i get this and this and this, is not perfect but feels good and gameplay reworks can be wait for 5.0

[Mahrze]

Because like most things, the truth is in the middle, and heaven forbid the internet acknowledge nuance. Anyone who waltzes in saying "Drk 1st=Drk fine" is being 1 dimensional and dumb. Similarly, you cant counter a dumb idea with another dumb idea by saying "World 1st means nothing" because that's absurd too. If drk was a serious liability, then it would have held back a group that made IRL sacrifices just to attempt it, and that wouldn't last long. World 1st point out that the extreme end of "Drk is broken dumpster trash" is BS. World 1st isn't a club to bludgeon people with to stfu, and you cant just ignore it claiming 100% player skill. It defines a lower bound to 'how bad' a job is. Not so bad it cant be world 1st.

The fact we're still on the topic of "viable" 8 pages in shows we're not on the same page of the argument. The truth has always been the job is viable, it lacked certain buffs that were nice qols recently but it was never about "being unable to clear x". It proved its viable on the first crutch argument (UCOB) and it proves it now(UWU), but again, are the complaints actually sustained in the lack of viability? or are they really about gameplay?

Is it viable even though its gameplay is lacking? That is the rhetorical question,the current status and has been the status of DRK since 4.0. And that we're trying to branch out nuance on a point that is not only a given (being viable, because every job is) it brings nothing to move forward on what was asked and acknowledged by the team and that we at this point can only expect happen in 5.0.

Are the complaints justified? About as justified as the opinions of those who oppose it. But if your only argument is "viable" (which hasn't been the point for a good portion of those talking about DRK and its issues) then we'll still be here, with the same points ad nauseaum.

[whiskeybravo]

Is it really more lacking in gameplay than Warrior? I mean, at least you get more than one button to push for burst.

[Kabooa]

Is it really more lacking in gameplay than Warrior? I mean, at least you get more than one button to push for burst.

I personally think every job could use more depth. Dark Knight is just one of the more grievous offenders.

[Aana]

Is it really more lacking in gameplay than Warrior? I mean, at least you get more than one button to push for burst.

Pretty much this. SE has actively been dumbing down, simplifying, and streamlining classes, especially tanks in SB. It's one of their stated goals in developing SB. They think the HW rotations were to complex and to punishing to screw up. Dot's maintenance was pruned across the board. Personal buffs were made easier to maintain (blood of the dragon, enochian, darkside, Storm's eye, etc) and less punishing to screw up (heavy thrust, storms eye again, positionals in general, etc).

So yes. Viable is important because we aren't going to get complex Drk back. Just like we aren't getting rigid but rewarding War zerk/IR gameplay back anymore than Drg and Mnk are going back to struggling to maintain buffs with small room for error.

Balanced/Viable are much more specific and measureable goals. But as Drk has improved patch by patch, the calls for balance/power have slowly transitioned into gameplay complaints. 'Gameplay is lacking' is both unspecific and highly subjective. There are a lot of happy war's hitting 1 button. There are a lot of happy drks out there spamming DA. But it also applies to virtually every job SE has smashed down into play doh simplicity. This was intentional. They WANT jobs to be simple and effective. But SE would have to do a 180 on the simplification path they've chosen. Moving away from HW drk (and other jobs) was part of the plan all along. If that's the gameplay you liked then your stuck in a bad spot, just like me and the other war's that don't care for memeCleave spam. But at least the power levels are evening out.

Gameplay is subjective. Some love, some hate and that will never change. But viable and balanced is something we can all appreciate and push for.