Trying to understand the complaints about DRK

[WhyAmIHere]

Man, I'm (not) going to enjoy this.

I had no idea there was such a thing as faulty facts and numbers. It doesn't seem like you enjoy DRK at all. You've put on a convincing performance, I've been fooled! Still, this block of word vomit has been quite the task to dissect. But let's start:

Yes, there are such things as faulty facts, though that's entire irrelevant to this discussion. Remember how society used to fully believe the world was flat? Or that the sun orbited the earth? Or that you could turn lead into gold? Or how mercury could grant immortality? Even now the same numbers used to prove the earth to be round are used by flat earthers to prove their own faulty assumptions, because the way they use the numbers is also correct, when used how they want them to be used. I.E.: reality is subjective.
With that said, don't assume to know what I do or do not like. Just because I complain about a thing does not mean I dislike it. Not only did I say so myself, you yourself say as much here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4668275

I don't quite understand what you mean "letting us do what we already did." You couldn't BS/Quietus before the gauge, nor could you extend your buffs. If you mean we were already doing damage, then the gauge allows us to do more. By definition, literally, this is what it means to augment a kit, and the gauge performs that exact function. In dungeons, this gauge allows us to continously AoE, indefinitely. We sure as heck couldn't do that before the guage. Also, who cares when we get our guage? Anything before cap lvl is irrelevant to judging a class.

Since I am answering this out of order, I'll do a summary here. "Letting us do what we were already doing" via blood weapon/price, and souleater. You cannot extend BW/BP until 66, much later than anyone else, but BS/Q are not part of a rotation as much as 'rewards' for having X amount of gauge. (Q maybe, with dungeon pulls, usage of AD, and Q to refill your mana. However, I'd argue that's less a rotation, moreso a reaction to "oh I have 50 blood and am out of MP, time to Q.")
And as far as the bolded here? Anyone who knows anything about good design, or design in general, will see the flaws with this gauge and its implementation.

Think about our most-used skills. SE, C&S, SS, and BS. All their DA effects solely increase damage, which makes the first question sound oblivious. As I've said before, the prescence of quietus and the interaction it has with our MP and gauge allows us to AoE forever. As for quietus's MP regeneration, why even bring it up now when it hasn't been a relevant issue since patches ago?

Our "most used" skills would not in my list include BS, due to BS being obtained at 68, much much later than the rest of those skills you listed. As far as why I bring up the MP generation on quietus now, I want to say you're misreading what I'm saying. I said that the DA effect of Q is worthless, not the MP regeneration. That the MP regen was added was a huge QoL improvement... that shouldn't have even been needed had DRK's MP generation via BP not had been nerfed to start with.
But as to why I am baffled by why Q's DA effect just increased potency? Let's assume you're in dungeon, pulling a mass amount of mobs (i.e. more than just one pack of enemies), and that you're doing a dungeon at level 70. With BP active, you'll drop 2400 MP for TBN, and 9.5 times out of 10, TBN will burst and you'll now have 50(+whatever from BP) blood. You're still fighting a mob of enemies, spamming AD. What do you do? You either extend the duration of BP via delirium, which will net you more MP over time per hit received as well as the MP from delirium itself. Or, you can spend that 50 blood on Q. You'll be back to the original duration of BP, and only get that potentially large chunk of MP per enemy hit from Q.
Now, you can spend the 2400 MP to DA the Q, but you're now sinking 4800 MP to use TBN to proc 50 blood, then spending that 50 blood and 2400 MP to simply hit the enemies attacking you for a stronger Q, while not generating any larger quantity of MP from the Q usage. I cannot think of a single instance where you will regain that 4800 MP through the use of a DA'd Q in a large mob pull. That includes the mass in Skalla with the baby + momma add trash, and the part of Temple of the Fist post first boss where you fight three winged minions and a bear which brings it's own friends. Fractal Continuum (Hard), Hell's Lid, and possibly kugane castle you could generate that large a quantity of MP back with large enough pulls. But, if I wanted to keep up AoE'ing mobs down, I'd rather spend that 2400 MP that would've gone towards DA'ing the Q, to instead use TBN again once it's off cooldown, and use the 50 blood that'd come from that TBN prop to simply use a Q to refill my MP. I argue that you gain more MP overtime from an extended BP, and two TBN's to fuel one delirium and one Q, than you would from using one TBN, and DA onto a Q.
In short, the reward you have for using Q is not worth the effort to even ever consider using it. (But, since I am not posting numbers aside from MP costs, I welcome anyone to prove me wrong. As well, for this case I am not factoring in Soul Survivor, simply due to simplicity.)

Sure, we could streamline BS's description to say it's unaffected by tank stance, but not something I'd bring up as a keypoint as to why "DRK has faults!" Why is Inner Release locked behind the lvl 70 job quest? That's the whole point of WAR's identity, especially since 4.2 "Berserk" outright sucks. "No other job," eh? You forgot to look at your fellow tank! It's just our capstone and there's nothing wrong with having it at cap. But either way, leveling doesn't matter because 99% of our time is spent at cap lvl.

BS is clunky, and honestly I'd rather it say that it's unaffected by Grit, or rather "ignores the damage penalty of Grit," just like how Inner Beast does. At least then you wouldn't have 4 potencies to it. Just the base, and the DA potencies. 4 becomes 2. Trimming of the fat. If Stormblood was supposed to "streamline" all the jobs, how did this get passed Quality Control? It's not a hugely pivotal-to-my-entire-argument point to be made, but instead one of several points to my argument. Nice work trying to conflate a point to invalidate my argument while discrediting the rest of what I'm saying.
Ahh, thank you. Inner Release. It's not its own, independent skill like TBN is, but instead an "evolution" of Berserk. You will have berserk long before 70, and all IR does is reconfigure what the effect of the skill does. You will be using berserk before 70, and once you obtain IR you will continue to use it. Now, granted, IR is enough of a change to your kit that requires you to change how you perform your duties as a WAR, but unlike DRK with TBN, it's a change of the key gameplay loop, and not a completely new addition that also requires a change to your core gameplay loop.

Because DRK's gameplay is about resource management. It's a wonderful thing to appreciate when you actually understand the class. You can turn your MP into mitigation, which in turn gives you another resource for damage. The way you structure the question seems like you want some sort of intricate interaction with the gauge and the guage itself. Neither PLD nor WAR have this going on. In fact, all PLD gets from its gauage is sheltron and intervention. WAR just does what it's always done, except now you add upheaval and onslaught.

My response to the bolded segment will be in the next segment, but let me just state here this part I bolded shows your own ignorance to how these gauges function.

How much time do you need to learn a mechanic? Again, you spend far more time at cap than you do leveling. You have all the time in the world to learn how to use your skills. It's the same growing pains other classes go through as well.

Oh boy.
I can't speak for BLM, MNK, MCH, BRD, WHM, or SCH, either due to lack of being at max level, or in the case of SCH simply not playing the class. That disclaimer being said:
Yes, you will spend a majority of your time at max level. There isn't an argument there. However, no other class has such little time with these new gauges to learn the intricacies to how they function or how to maximize the usage thereof.
*AST has no gauge to speak of, instead their new thing is just a way to better display what cards are where, either Spread, Royal Roaded, or converted into the Lord/Lady of Crowns.
*NIN obtains the Huton meter as soon as you hit level 45, meaning you have from 45-70 to get accustomed to keeping uptime on that gauge, and obtains Armor Crush at 54, which extends the duration of the huton gauge. Then, they obtain the ninki gauge at 62 (the same level as DRK), which is increased by 6 with every auto attack. Funny, you're already going to be using your huton gauge from 45, so the ninki gauge is an augment to what you were doing already.
*DRG obtains the new BotD gauge at 54, when said skill is unlocked. So, you'll have from 54-70 to get used to using it and maintaining it. Fang and Claw, Wheeling Thrust, and Sonic Spike, are obtained at 56, 58, and 62 respectively. All three of these, aside from a recast of BotD, extend the duration of their gauge. From 54 you will be using this gauge, until you hit cap, and even beyond you will still be using it.
*SAM obtains their Kenki gauge at 52, and receives a trait at 62 which changes how all of your weaponskills interact with this gauge. Whereas before, 2/3 combos only increased your gauge when done from a positional, now at cap all of your weaponskills will be generating this gauge. Hell, even Enpi, SAM's long-range attack, which is obtained at 15, increases your gauge by 10 per use. Meditate, obtained at level 60, is another method to generate this gauge, and finally we get to bring in your three symbols via Hagakure, which converts those symbols into gauge, with varying amounts based on how many of those three symbols you do convert.
*RDM, obtained at 50 like SAM, comes with it's mana gauge pre-ready. Even taking it into Halatali at minimum ilevel you still have that gauge available to you, at level 20. RDM's gauge is used to fuel their enhanced melee combo, which is obtained/available at level 50, as well as Moulinet, which is obtained at level 52. Their gauge is also manipulated by manafication, obtained at level 60, to double whatever your current levels of white/black mana.
*SMN obtains dreadwyrm trance at 58, which itself is a gauge (now). While in dreadwyrm trance, Ruin3 becomes an instant-cast, tri-binds potency and effects are changed, and at level 60, you obtain deathflare. At level 70, your trance is further augmented by the accumulation of dreadwyrm aether, used to summon demi-bahamut. From 58-70, you will be learning how to properly time, align, and utilize your dreadwyrm gauge.
Now for the tanks, and here's the clearest distinction of how flawed DRK's gauge functions. (Also for the sake of disclaimer I do not remember what levels that the gauges are obtained, and my cursory google search was less than helpful.)
*WAR's gauge has two functions, dependent on which stance they are in. Namely, the amount of gauge you have grants a passive boost to your parry or crit rate, stance dependent. The second use of your beast gauge is for certain skills. At level 50 you obtain Infuriate, which is a flat gain of 50 beast gauge. at 35 you have Inner Beast to spend gauge on, so from that I'd say it's safe to assume you obtain the gauge at or around that level. But, from 35-70 you'll have time to learn how to use the gauge, and how your kit revolves around managing your gauge due to the two functions it provides.
*PLD has the least use of their gauge, used solely for two skills: shelltron and Intervention. However, unlike WAR who can only gain gauge through any of their combos or via Infuriate, PLD's oath gauge is generated by: 1) blocks while in shield oath, 2) auto attacks in sword oath, 3) the spell Holy Spirit, obtained at level 64, which will increase your gauge by 20 per cast while in shield oath, and 4) indirectly via Bulwark (obtained at level 46) assuming Shield Oath, by bulwark increasing your block rate by 60%.
*DRK obtains their gauge at 62, along with the skill Delirium. When they obtain it, the only means they have to generate this new gauge are via the Souleater combo *and Salted earth ticks. at 66, after Quietus (64) and before Bloodspiller (68), you obtain a trait that adds blood generation to Blood Weapon/Price. It's when this trait is obtained that you have the most interaction with your gauge, via both passive generation (BW/BP being active) and active generation (souleater combo). I'd also like to assume that Salted earth gains blood generation once blood gauge is obtained at 62, but again, my cursory search through google wasn't fruitful.
Unlike WAR, who at 50 gains the single largest source of gauge generation for free, DRK has to wait until 70, but that source has a condition of "TBN must be broken." A trivial condition, but one nonetheless. As for passive generation, DRK pales in comparison to PLD, who will be generating gauge consistently in either stance without the requirement of a skill being used/active. All of the WAR's weaponskills will generate gauge, with storm's path generating 20 gauge when used to complete a combo instead of the 10 from storm's eye / butcher's block. DRK, only one of their combos will generate gauge, albeit the one combo DRK will be using the most.
WAR has the most interplay / use with their gauge, in that skills that require a certain amount of gauge to even be used, as well as a passive buff from a more filled gauge. DRK only gains access to 2 offensive skills from their gauge, and no passive buff from having any amount of gauge.
*The lack of a non-conditional active method of gauge generation, the inferior, skill-dependent methods of passive skill generation, and just how impactless that gauge is when looked at side-by-side to the other tanks is what leads me to believe the blackblood gauge is inferior overall. PLD has the least use of the three tanks for their gauge, but they will be generating that gauge at all times. WAR has more uses for their gauge, and are rewarded for having a certain amount of it. DRK simply has it, uses it, and repeats.

Becuase you're encouraged to use your primary combo. WAR essentially uses two combos only, but even then it's just a one button difference. I'm not sure you can call a single button difference an engaging choice. TBN is a utility becuase it saves your healers having to worry too much about you. It's utility because it can be used for fluff damage, tank busters, or raid-wides alike. It isn't tied down to a gauge or stance either, like sheltron or inner beast respectively. It can be used on party members as well. There hasn't been a fight that outright requires raid-wide shielding. In that respect, it's utility enough. I've said it before many times, but to say TBN cost a resource is faulty when you've given damage equal to the cost of a DA. Again, the point of DRK is simply not to overflow. If you find yourself needing TBN and not being able to "becuase it cost a resource," you've managed your resources poorly. That said, TBN is essentially free mitigation on a 15 second timer.

When that single button provides a damage increase to the rest of any and all damage you do? I'd consider that an "engaging choice," yes. That and that even having the option available to do something other than just press the same three button sequences over and over, to break up the monotony, is always going to be better than not having the option at all.
Yes, TBN is utility in the sense that it helps mitigate fluff damage and the like. However, that's true for both WAR and PLD in that all three have resources available to them to mitigate damage and ease the burden on the healers of keeping you alive. But if, as you say, there has yet to be a fight that outright requires this mitigation, a point that I say is flat out false, then why do you feel you can on one hand praise TBN for being such a valuable mitigation skill, and how great of a help it is to your healers, while saying that there's not a fight that requires any kind of shielding.
As well, your argument is flawed in a few points. Shelltron requires gauge to use, this is true. However, using shelltron to proc shield swipes is strictly a DPS gain regardless of circumstances, unlike the amount of damage potency you would get by using BS after breaking TBN. Additionally, you neglected to mention SiO at all in your response, which also when used affects your entire party. So, WAR can SiO for themselves and their party, and use Inner Beast on themselves, and still have access to rampart, vengeance, and raw intuition. All of these skills which help the healers of your team by reducing the damage taken by you and your party... and yet there isn't yet a fight that requires party shielding?
TBN does have a cost associated to it. Specifically, 2400 MP. For you to say that because TBN, when broken, returns 50 blood which can then be used to fuel a BS somehow means you're still not spending 2400 MP to begin with is erroneous at best. It's absolutely nothing like the cost-free ability for a WAR to switch to defiance, which costs nothing to do as it is both an oGCD and has no TP/MP/beast gauge requirements to do so.

That's what resource management is all about. That's what the job is. This is a clear case where if this an issue for you, then it's not so much a fault with the job, but maybe the job isn't for you.

DRK has always been about resource management, true. In Heavensward, darkside having a constant drain of MP made you pay attention to how much MP you were using in any encounter. My issue isn't inherently with the fact that DRK has resource management as part of it's gameplay identity, its the sheer levels of convolution to the dual resource management for what amounts to such a minor degree of payoff.

Because you don't communicate with your party.

Hallowed requires no communication, whatsoever. Holmgang doesn't kill you, but it does leave you in a very vulnerable, about-to-die-possibly state. A state which you can recover from in any amount. Walking dead absolutely requires you to hit a certain threshold of healing to not kill you outright at the end of it's duration. A warrior can be healed for 80% of their total health from 1HP and be fine. While Holm doesn't inherently require the same level of communication as Walking Dead does, I'll concede that communication with your healer(s) is key. However, barring the obvious that communication can and does break down among people on the internet, especially in the case of tone and intent, failure to communicate having such a huge drawback to its use is in my opinion just another example of poor design choices that've been made.

Gee, why is equilibrium heal locked behind a stance? Do you really need a heal from your main damage combo? PLD doens't seem to.

I'll just start by addressing the point of PLD first, and most easily. Clemency, and all of PLD's mitigation, including divine veil.
Now that PLD has been addressed, let's go over the avenues WAR has to self-heal. Equilibrium in tank stance, is a 1200 potency heal. Sure while not in tank stance it's a TP regenerating tool, but you're right in that the parallel to that in DRK's kit is souleater's HP drain effect, which is locked behind tank stance. That aside, DRK's only other option for self healing, I wouldn't really want to count on, is soul survivor, being that it's only available every 120s. WAR, on the other hand, has Storm's Path, which heals regardless of stance, and Inner Beast, which is both a heal and mitigation. Although not ideal, you can also heal for a not-insignificant amount by combining Inner Release and Inner Beast, a large enough chunk of emergency healing as needed that DRK does not have similar levels of access to.
Is that bad, per se? Inherently, no. Do I think DRK should have that level of self-sustain? Maybe, but i'd also argue against trying to bring such a level of homogenization to the tanks.

Because DRK is fine.

My case is not relying on one encounter/instance/clear (despite it being several), but pointing out DRK holds no one back.

I wanted to go through your post history and point out all the times you made comments saying "DRK was involved in UCoB, it's fine" and more recently how one of the tanks in the WF race of UwU was a DRK, but as has been said plenty of times before. The matter is not "DRK holds X back from Y" at all. The argument(s) being made is that, what is offered by DRK, is offered by both WAR and PLD, and better; and at the highest tiers of play, job performance is irrespective of player ability. If DRK was truly fine, as you seem to think it is, then would you argue that it has always been fine? Prior to any of the changes received? Especially after the statement made by the developers that a DRK rework would require more time to implement, as that has been an on-going complaint since the release of the current expansion? It's a complicated, convoluted, clusterF of a class that needs some serious addressing towards the issues of. We can banter and debate and argue left and right, sideways and byways, about just what constitutes problem areas for the class. The fact that people can see so many flaws with the class, whereas now PLD is almost perfectly designed in it's kit, and WAR after receiving the buffs that it has makes it operate like a well greased engine, only exacerbates the problem.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

BS is clunky, and honestly I'd rather it say that it's unaffected by Grit, or rather "ignores the damage penalty of Grit," just like how Inner Beast does. At least then you wouldn't have 4 potencies to it. Just the base, and the DA potencies. 4 becomes 2. Trimming of the fat.

I would like to quickly point out that the potency of Grit Bloodspiller (475) does not compensate for the damage penalty from Grit; it would have to be 500 potency for that to be true. The potency of Dark Arts on Grit Bloodspiller (175), however, does.

This is why it has 4 different potencies.

[TouchandFeel]

I would like to quickly point out that the potency of Grit Bloodspiller (475) does not compensate for the damage penalty from Grit; it would have to be 500 potency for that to be true. The potency of Dark Arts on Grit Bloodspiller (175), however, does.

Expanding on the above.

Each one is actually 24 potency less for the Grit version.

No Grit + No DA: 400 x 1.2 = 480 potency
Grit + No DA: 475 x 0.96 = 456 potency
480 - 456 = 24 potency
24 / 480 = 0.05
This equates to 5% lower potency in Grit versus out of Grit.

No Grit + DA: 540 x 1.2 = 648 potency
Grit + DA: 650 x 0.96 = 624 potency
648 - 624 = 24 potency
24 / 648 = 0.037
This equates to approximately 4% lower potency in Grit, the lower % coming from 24 being a lower portion of the higher potencies.

The additional potency from DA is adjusted to compensate.
DA boost with no Grit is 140. DA boost with Grit is 175.
140 x 1.2 = 168 potency
175 x 0.96 = 168 potency

However since the values to which the equal additional potencies from DA are being added already have the 24 potency difference, that difference persists regardless.

As stated, the potency for Grit Bloodspiller would need to be 500 to be equal and remove the 24 potency difference.
No Grit + No DA: 400 x 1.2 = 480 potency
Grit + No DA: 500 x 0.96 = 480 potency

Personally I agree that the 4 separate potencies are unnecessary convoluted and should just be done away with while making Bloodspiller, and imo also Quietus, ignore the Grit damage penalty like Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone.

I actually wonder if the odd 4 potency thing is a result of the way that they calculate the end potency for abilities that are being used with DA, where they calculate the adjusted potency of the base ability and DA separately and then add them together like below.

(475 x 0.96) + (175 x 0.96)
as opposed to ...
650 x 0.96

While they mathematically are the same, from a programming viewpoint the fact that they are separate could be the reason that the devs aren't going the "ignore Grit damage penalty" route since that would only affect the portion of the equation for the Bloodspiller base ability, the 475 potency part, since the "ignore penalty" function is built into the ability and the DA part is tacked on and is not considered part of the ability and therefore would not be affected by the "ignore penalty" bit of the ability.

If that is what is going on, then I understand the multiple potency route as opposed to the "ignore Grit damage penalty" route, but then they should adjust the Grit potency to 500.

Aana's post below

I feel that both approaches have the potential for confusion and it all depends on how each individual interprets how the additional potency from DA interacts with the ability that is being boosted by DA.

If someone perceives it as the potency of the ability itself is being increased, then the "ignores Grit damage penalty" route may make more sense as the boosted potency is still the potency of the ability and thus ignores the penalty, while all the multiple potencies is just convoluted.

If someone perceives it as DA is providing an additional chunk of potency on top of what the ability does, then the multiple potencies for the differing situations may make more sense as they see them as independent of each other and therefore the "ignore Grit damage penalty" aspect may not translate over to the DA additional potency.

I will say though, that the way DA potencies are presented in the ability descriptions does somewhat skew perception towards the former which is likely why there is as much confusion and dislike of the multiple potencies approach for Bloodspiller's description.

In the end and as I alluded to earlier in this post, I suspect it may be a mechanics issue that resulted in the 4 separate potencies and not necessarily a perception issue.

[Hierro]

Just because I complain about a thing does not mean I dislike it. Not only did I say so myself, you yourself say as much here

Did you misread what I said? I was not complaining, but praising an aspect of DRK.

Anyone who knows anything about good design, or design in general, will see the flaws with this gauge and its implementation.

I suppose you have credentials in game design?

the DA effect of Q is worthless

You wrote all that theory. It sounds like you lack the practice if you think 4800 in MP cannot be refunded easily. However, I'll let a video demonstrate better than words can say. Check out how he goes from ~25%, to full with a single DA-Q, mutliples times, and on more than one pull. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJrtblpkHSQ

[stuff about gauges]

Realistically, PLD will only gain gauge via auto-attacks, the least engaging way to gain gauge. I don't know a PLD worth their salt that generates gauge through other methods. And no, PLD will not generate gauge as easily as it would in sword oath. In either case, DRK has far more interesting interaction with their gauge than PLD. WAR? hard to say, as I main it, I feel the gauge is little more than some token system, but I'll concede that may be habituation and bias.

if, as you say, there has yet to be a fight that outright requires this mitigation, a point that I say is flat out false

It's not false. There isn't a single instance that requires a raid-wide shield like DV or SiO, or perhaps more accurately, one that requires both. Let's be realistic, if a DRK is in your party, you're ensured to have WAR or PLD. You'll have some raid-wide shielding. Even then, instances like O4S were cleared just fine before SiO was turned into a raid-wide shield with DRK/WAR comps, and that instance had heavy amounts of damage going to the party. However, the point remains that party shielding isn't a requirement, or else comps with DRK would never clear anything to begin with, and it would be outright foolish to think instances like UCoB or UWU simply cater to DRK by having "weak-enough" raid-wide damage.

In regards to TBN costing MP, that point is irrelevant. Did you read the argument? There should not be a situation where you find yourself OOM. It's free mitigation and damage IF you practice proper management.

Clemency

Not part of your main damage combo, and arguably a detriment to use. But really, you can make the argument the frequent shielding you get from TBN is its own form of healing, otherwise SCH would be called a weak healer. Storm's path, on the other hand, the heal is so insignificant it changes realistically nothing. I should know from first hand experience. I don't feel like I'm missing a thing when I'm playing DRK over WAR, especially as MT as far as self healing goes.

what is offered by DRK, is offered by both WAR and PLD, and better

DRK unarguably has better AoE and mobility than PLD. DRK can take fluff damage better than PLD thanks to TBN. TBN outright 0s out auto attacks or certain raid-wides, blocking/sheltron only mitigates one such auto-attack/raid wide. Ever try mitigating o6s's last kiss with sheltron? Difficult to do when you constantly take autos. Easy with DRK thanks to TBN.

DRK has better personal mitigation than WAR. You can supplement any CD with TBN for mitigation that surpasses anything WAR can conjure up. TBN can be used while in dps stance, and it's better than IB.

so no, what is offered by DRK might have some aspects that is shared with the other tanks, but it definitely has its own unique flavor and can exceed where the other two don't.

[shao32]

DRK unarguably has better AoE and mobility than PLD. DRK can take fluff damage better than PLD thanks to TBN. TBN outright 0s out auto attacks or certain raid-wides, blocking/sheltron only mitigates one such auto-attack/raid wide. Ever try mitigating o6s's last kiss with sheltron? Difficult to do when you constantly take autos. Easy with DRK thanks to TBN.

DRK has better personal mitigation than WAR. You can supplement any CD with TBN for mitigation that surpasses anything WAR can conjure up. TBN can be used while in dps stance, and it's better than IB.

so no, what is offered by DRK might have some aspects that is shared with the other tanks, but it definitely has its own unique flavor and can exceed where the other two don't.

how many times you will use TBN as a excuse for fluff mitigation? TBN is barely to not worthy against fluff mitigation outside of savage and mass pulling and even on savage TBN dont break if you have the bad luck the boss start casting something or do anything stoping autoattacks, the skill is not designed to work effectively against such damage for 2 reasons:
1º the short duration and 2º with more item level the skill gain more chances to dont pop against non-high damage, the short duration prevents the effectiveness of TBN remains intact for any content as you ilevel grows, as full 370 i saw TBN fail so many times on single target AA due they cant hit hard enough to break the shield, only guardian and kefka can do that with less risk, being a job that have to squeeze every drop of mp and blood to barely being behind PLD on dps its just not a worthy option, you cant compare TBN with pasive block at all, since TBN is not free mitigation TBN is mandatory mitigation if we want to survive the hits that matters, you cant keep it on CD costing you dps and a chance to dont have it ready when you need it despite of the short CD it can happens a lot if you use it without thinking.

and i have to disagre, ignoring the part that inner beast cost some dps inner beast mitigate much more that TBN, TBN just handle 1 TB or 1 raid aoe, inner beast mitigate not only the TB or raid aoe, it mitigates the AA that come after, if we put a WAR using inner beast it have the best personal mitigation due your coldowns have longer duration in general and have constant HP self heals from path without mention holmgang, and all of this is meaningless bcs no matter who have the biggest cushion in they ass bcs dont save GCD of any healer.

[SleepyNeko]

DRK unarguably has better AoE and mobility than PLD. DRK can take fluff damage better than PLD thanks to TBN. TBN outright 0s out auto attacks or certain raid-wides, blocking/sheltron only mitigates one such auto-attack/raid wide. Ever try mitigating o6s's last kiss with sheltron? Difficult to do when you constantly take autos. Easy with DRK thanks to TBN.

I don't think your TBN will be mitigating much if you are already hit by an AUTO, One auto and most of the shielding from TBN is already gone so it really does nothing against "fluff". At least sheltron is free (and blocking is free in general). The thing is the fluff damage for PLD comes alot more steadily compared to a one full auto mitigation for DRK which could end up as over healing due to HoTs or healers preparing bigger heals for TBs.

But isn't this all back to HW's problem? Doesn't matter if PLD has better mitigation if healing is not a problem, so it doesn't matter if it is expensive for WAR to use IB because there is no need for WAR to use IB. Also Raw Intuition/Bulwark > Dark Mind for fluff.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

If you ask me, Dark Knight has been poorly designed from the start, in spite of its performance.

[Aana]

The grit BS thing really has no good solution. If you say "Ignores tank penalty" (and get the 5% penny difference) then you still need to somehow point out in text that DA also ignores penalty but only for this 1 skill and risks confusion that DA is 140 potency just like every other skill (when it isnt). The alternative is what we have now which spells out the flat potency. This way makes it crystal clear how BS relates to other skills in either form and how DA fits into it.

It's wordy and awkward, but it is very clear. It's in the same boat as the awkwardness around upheaval. A lot of people are surprised that upheaval is affected by unchained because they assumed it ignored tank stance penalty as the damage goes up in defiance. But in the background it is doing the same thing as BS. Gets an (invisible) potency buff to compensate for tank stance then multiplied by the extraHP in defiance so it 'looks' like it's ignoring defiance. But then you unchained and damage goes up more so it didnt ignore defiance.

BS at least is crystal clear on what it does and its relation to DA.

[Jandor]

You can hold 100 blood
You don't want to cap blood
Everything that uses blood costs 50 blood
Everything that uses blood lights up when it's available.

You never need to actually look at the gauge... that's one of my complaints for DRK.

[Lyth]

If TBN was actually dps neutral, then you could certainly throw it out on random autos. It's not.

The dps value of TBN is variable. In some cases the blood gain is greater than the MP cost, as tends to be the case during raid burst windows. On average, though, it works out to be a minor dps loss.

This shouldn't discourage you from using it when you need to mitigate a cleave or tankbuster. But it's a bit of a waste to use it frivolously. If you're unsure of this, look up DRKs who are trying to optimise for speedruns. You'll find a much lower rate of TBN usage in general (on the order of 1-2 times per fight). I'm not saying that you should necessarily emulate this, but it's worth noting.

I think that TBN's design tries to be clever with its resource juggling, but falls a little short because the rest of DRK's kit doesn't really take full advantage of blood - MP conversions. If it's supposed to be a focal mechanic, they should've gone the route of turning DRK into a full Zarya tank. Throw out shields, hit harder, throw out more shields.

From the way people talk about IB, you'd think that nobody ever uses it. If so, they should consider just replacing IB with FC in Defiance during the next job action crunch.