Trying to understand the complaints about DRK

[Zeyd]

So I’ve been following the numerous threads about ppl complaining about DA spam, what should be changed, blah blah blah. I don’t get it. Yes, you use DA a lot, yes there are double weaves... but there are doubles on most jobs. As for the DA spam, you could use it between every global I suppose... then run out of mp and have none left for TBN (which is worth more overall pot than DA when used right btw).

What we have is a tank that adds another layer of difficulty to the tank role, which is a good thing imo. Both the other tanks feel very bland, using one or 2 combos while waiting for Req/IR, and dealing with minimal resource management while doing so.

At its core, Drk is supposed to feel fast, with a higher apm than the other tanks, and DA is how that is achieved. And honestly, those who advocate the the changes being suggested on these forum lately... maybe drk just isn’t for you? If you wanted a slower play 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-4, burst playstyle... those already exist,

[Mahrze]

DA spam is just not interesting nor doing anything but being a 25% MP for 140 Potency crutch on most of the actions that use it. Its gimmick doesn't add a layer of reward, but its a layer of unnecessary button bloat. Which "supposedly" was what they were trying to cut down in SB.

At its core, DRK was a paper tank that needed to take three steps to what its peers achieve with different methods. As is, it now needs only 2 steps.

All in all, DRKs Blackblood gimmick and MP usage isn't as interwoven as you'd think.

[Zeyd]

I’d argue DA isn’t as flat as you think. 140? Yes. But you can pair that with lunge now for aggro, quietus on anything with more than 2 mobs, dark passenger for same reasons as quietus, or even for aggro if you are willing to take a slight dps loss. Carve and spit makes that a 300 gain, and then there is just not using DA and putting that into TBN instead, which generates more resource to manage.

I’d agree that it’s more convoluted than its piers, to achieve the same result, but that’s what is fun about it. It’s not the other tanks. I’m honestly starting to believe ppl just want to carry a big cool sword, but want to be a face roll ez job like War.

[Mahrze]

As much nuance as you're trying to create, its still a very simple trade off with which the reward (which is what matters to everyone) is convoluted and was for a good time, underwhelming until the recent changes.

And nobody is asking "simplicity", but more "substance". DRK currently is, for all intents and purposes, a 1-2-3 job. DA+Plunge > DA power Slash and you'd rarely if ever lose hate even on a Random DF run, you switch to SE combo on repeat ad infinitum with DA "weaves" ever so often. That is not substance, that is simplicity and its what we have. There's no way around that. DRK being complex is one of the main reasons it was popular in HW. It's exactly that complexity and the reward is brought before that people want back.

[Zojha]

Didn't it already have a higher APM before?

I don't remember people having much issues with that, so I don't think there's any ground for:"Maybe it's just not your Job" type arguments, at least not among those that played DRK before.

Main issue seems to be that they tried to consolidate the APM of the Low Blow/Reprisal Procs and Dark Arts all into Dark Arts alone, making that one ability feel overused, exacerbated by the innate issues that arise from the design of DA as a combo ability that gets consumed.

[Tamerling]

The main problem i have with it just now is compared to 3.X DRK is a lot less fun to play with half its oGCDs and a combo finisher and taken away and replaced it with dark arts spam while doing the souleater combo till the end of time.

In my opinion this has made drk the most brain dead tank in the game right now you as in most situations you just spam everything and the punishment for screwing up is basically nonexistent. Whereas on PLD or WAR making a mistake costs way more dps overall.

[Insanecell]

This is my first forum post so I do apologize for any errors and the length. But to answer your question, and this is my own personal opinion, my issues with DRK are rather simple: It's not Heavensward.

In Heavensward I adored this class and with Stormblood came some of the most baffling set of design choices I've ever seen.

The first being the removal of Delirium as a weaponskill combo finisher without a replacement. This locks the class into one major rotation and its threat combo which most people do not use unless theres a reset or other circumstances. Aggro management has mostly become a party thing now due to the amount of threat management tools in the game. I still question as to why Scourge never took its place, and if homogenizing the tanks is a concern then its far too late for that, DRK got its own version of Fell Cleave and Decimate anyway.

Second being the removal of the mp drain and Darkside being able to fall off. This in my mind is the creator of the Dark Arts spam issue alot of people have now. Spamming Dark Arts was a death wish before unless you had blood weapon/price active, however now Darkside never falls off (even in death now due to a recent change). Now as long as you conserve mp for a TBN you can hit your DA keybind as much as you want now. I dont mind every ability having a DA effect, and recent changes have added alot to think about when using DA. The big thing though is that Syphon Strike should not have a DA effect, and the reason for that is back in Heavensward, HS into SS into Delirium had no DA effects whatsoever. This allowed you to bank a DA for an ogcd like DP or CnS if your internet sucked (like mine) or weren't good at double weaving (like me).

My only real numerical issue right now with the class is that DP is useless still on a ST. Why does it cost the same as a DA if it does not have the same potency as a DA. It may be 140 pot now but that does not account for Slashing Debuff due to it being magic damage. A relatively simple fix to this is to just reduce the mp cost rather than increase the potency again, especially now that its on a 1 min cd rather than a 30 second cd.

My last real issue is with the role action system. I dont understand the reason behind its existence and the "choices" it offers. Half of the actions such as Voke, Shirk, Rampart (Shadowskin) could have easily just been learned baseline at the level you get them in the role action system. Also Anticipation (originally Dark Dance), Low Blow, Reprisal all had reactive gameplay tied to them when you parried a attack, Low Blow's cd had a chance to reset and it had a potency, Reprisal triggered and it had a potency and had Storms Path's old effect. So to me, DRK lost alot of its identity there and was given knock offs in return, really nice looking knock offs, but knock offs nonetheless.

This last gripe is 100% personal. But I do not like TBN. I understand how powerful it is but I just do not like catch all abilities. I do not want to see DRK built around this one ability and would gladly trade it in for half of the stuff we had in Heavensward. Again, that one though is all me.

I apologize for the wall of text. TLDR is that its just not Heavensward DRK. I understand that classes change, but not all change is good and fun is subjective. Like I said, these are all just my personal issues with current state of the class.

[TouchandFeel]

The reason many people dislike the current implementation of Dark Arts, myself included, is that it lacks impact and choice in it's usage.

Outside of a few exceptions, DA provides a flat +140 potency boost to single target skills most of the time you are using it. Most of the other skills that provide something more or something different are on a timer and will make up a very small percentage of your overall DA usage.
Because of there being little to no difference in the result of how you use DA most of the time, it leads to it's usage feeling very repetitive and hence the "DA spam" complaints. Pressing a single button over and over with little to no thought since there is no relevant choices to be made just to approximately break even with what the other jobs accomplish doesn't feel fun, it feels like busy work. As a result it doesn't feel like skillful execution of DA is a factor nor is there any real reward for doing this busy work.

Also keep in mind that many of the abilities you gave as an example, such as Plunge, were only just changed with the most recent patch and that the DA complaints have been going since the release of Stormblood, so a lot of momentum has built behind these grievances that are not going to be stopped fully by a few changes.

I also disagree that people want DA changed to make DRK "faceroll ez", in fact many DRKs that dislike the current way DA functions want more complexity added to the job by changing DA in different ways such as how I argue for more additional effects to be added to the DA effects of GCD abilities so that they are not just simple +140 potency effects but instead present differing tactical choices for what ability to DA over another. Sure there are some that argue for DA to become more simplified or to just be done away with altogether, but many of us that want DA changes also argue against such proposals.

As for APM, bring it on. It was the high APM and "speed" of DRK that got me in to it in Heavensward. I just want all those extra button presses to have actual intent and meaning behind them, not just to have to be done "because ...".

[Chrono_Rising]

Dark Knight has been a class which has historically centered around enfeeblement, sacrifice, and damage, it has been a kind of "hurt me I dare you" job. I could get behind this job as a tank because the idea of a tank which enfeebles enemies for defense (reprisal and delirium), steals resources (syphon strike and souleater), and has something of a counter attack system in low blow procs was appealing, fast, and the combination of it all felt good. There were some issues and things could have worked better, but nothing huge.

Stormblood rolls out and SE has decided to remove all of that and replace it with dark arts spam. While I enjoy actively hitting buttons, I have to agree with others that it does offer very little variation. What would I prefer as dark arts? First off I would prefer if dark arts was only spent by GCD actions. It would make the mini buffs feel a but more if you could dark arts, oGCD with a dark arts effect, and then hit your GCD action to consume your buff. I would also prefer systems which had some sort of interplay with the rest of our kit. Perhaps leave DA on Souleater as a damage and HP restore, make dark arts siphon strike a bleed which deals damage and restores mp/blackblood, and perhaps have a third GCD which has a dark arts effect which extends blood weapon/price or adds additional haste bonuses.

I also disagree that warrior and paladin are bland. Warrior is balancing its gauge spending with maintaining its crit buff while also spending as much gauge in buff windows as possible. Paladin is looking to abuse its utilities/defense to gain more shield swipes for damage. Both classes are also using GCD manipulation to end phases with more damage just like TBN. I think you are short changing the other tank jobs a little here. However, I do agree with you that complaining about how many buttons have to be pressed is probably a sign that you are playing the wrong job and another might be more appealing.

[whiskeybravo]

One day I'll learn to be as pragmatic as Chrono. But that day is not today.

People were complaining about a lot more the DA spam. Did you actually read those threads?

Have you tanked lv70 content on all 3 tanks?

Have you tanked savage content?

Did you tank on DRK during Heavensward?


If the answer to any of those questions is no, you will have a hard time understanding the complaints about DRK. Most of the complaints are in relation to how it performs compared to the other 2 tanks. DPS, defense, raid utility, synergy with other jobs, etc.. These are all things you need the context for to really understand why so many people feel DRK is lacking and in a bad spot. Let's not even bring up the salt about War getting nearly immediate attention compared to the 11 month wait DRKs had to deal with.

Recent patch did do some good. I'd venture to guess most DRK's aren't completely happy, I myself still think they need a bit of DPS buff. But I don't raid on DRK so am not going to offer to many suggestions as to what DRK players want, I just like getting my popcorn ready and having good discussions