To everyone who says tanks shouldn't be able to meld Direct Hit

[HoodRat]

If you look at some statistics, warrior (the tank with the highest damage) does about 80% of the damage of ninja (the dps with the lowest damage).

Fixed it for you.

[Tridus]

While anecdotal most of the tanks and healers that I know enjoy the role in FFXIV while despise the role in other games simply because they enjoy the DPS aspect. Granted I am sure the faster queues are bonus, I do wonder how many tanks would stick around if they were forced into a turtle play style outside of prog.

And people who do like it in other games don't like it here for the same reason. It hasn't significantly changed the proportions, treating tanks like blue DPS still leaves us with not enough of them and needing further incentives to get people to play the role.

The experience of other MMOs suggests this fear is pretty strongly overblown. If players had to use tank stance and defensive stats more often, they would adapt. It's not like that leaves you standing around doing nothing the entire fight.

[Awha]

And people who do like it in other games don't like it here for the same reason. It hasn't significantly changed the proportions, treating tanks like blue DPS still leaves us with not enough of them and needing further incentives to get people to play the role.

The experience of other MMOs suggests this fear is pretty strongly overblown. If players had to use tank stance and defensive stats more often, they would adapt. It's not like that leaves you standing around doing nothing the entire fight.

That is the thing currently players have a choice, while it is true people in the community tend to focus solely on dps meta it is not required to clear content. If they force a more defensive play style that is removing the choice we currently have.

Right now players have a choice one style is preferred by the community over another, nevertheless the choice still exists. Sure in FFXIV the extra defense stats are far from needed, but that does not mean if a player who prefers such a play style is unable to play in such a way. It seems as what people really want is the Dps tank play style to be removed, or at the very least that is what I gather.

[Tridus]

That is the thing currently players have a choice, while it is true people in the community tend to focus solely on dps meta it is not required to clear content. If they force a more defensive play style that is removing the choice we currently have.

By that logic, healers have a choice too:you can choose to stand around doing nothing lots of the time. One of these choices is clearly wrong, but you can still make it and clear lots of content.

The only real choice here is to optimize or not. If you're optimizing a tank, you're doing it for damage, because that's where the optimization is. If you're not optimizing... then you can do whatever you want. Which is still true in games with a more defensive mindset, and would be true here too if you actually had to use Shield Oath regularly on bosses.

Right now players have a choice one style is preferred by the community over another, nevertheless the choice still exists. Sure in FFXIV the extra defense stats are far from needed, but that does not mean if a player who prefers such a play style is unable to play in such a way. It seems as what people really want is the Dps tank play style to be removed, or at the very least that is what I gather.

It's not like all those DPS buttons tanks have would go away if they had to put any focus on defense and enmity. The main thing that would actually change is numbers would get smaller because more effort would have to be directed into doing the "tank" part of the tank role. That's about it.

Spending an entire fight in Sword Oath is hardly a "stylistic choice". You do it because it works better than the alternative. If Shield Oath was suddenly better than the alternative, people would use that and some defensive melds instead and otherwise be mostly hitting the same buttons, thus having the same style.

Strictly speaking, if incoming damage was so much harder to mitigate that tank stance was usually necessary, and Tenacity gave you enough defense for a skilled player to be able to drop tank stance sometimes, Tenacity would become very appealing to the DPS minded tank players precisely because it'd enable them to use DPS stance more often. To me, that's a far more interesting game design than "all DPS stuff, all the time", because how much do you need, when can you swap, and how far on the edge can you get before your healers can't save you?

That's an interesting choice. When even I (as an occasional and not terribly good PLD) don't need more defense most of the time, where does that put the actual skilled tanks? There's no real choice there at all, just the illusion of choice.

[Nedkel]

I was always thinking how much direct hit chance is possible to get on a tank?
10-20%?
And were there any actual tests of this thing by how the RNG really works on that one?

In some games, the rng increase your chances of triggering some effect if it did happen in few tries.

the highest stat weight this patch is crit, so all of my friends who tank and raid savage all meld crit then the next stat for high dps, giving them the most dps vs straight dammage. straight dammage melding this time is actully less useful this patch. also the tanks i know play all 3 and thats what they meld plus they're the ones who told me the new stat thats highest this patch ^^

Arent the crit rate supossed to be better at like 3300 points?

[Awha]

Snip . . .

It is not the illusion of choice, you either have the choice optimize or not. I do not think either style is right or wrong, one is more preferable but does not make it right. If someone wants to play as a ice mage and they can find a group that is willing to deal with it and they are having fun who am I to say they are wrong. Though this is for another topic, I personally feel it can clear the content who am I to judge.

You are right if tank stats were consider optimal I personally would try and use as few defensive stats as possible and try to avoid tank stance a much as humanly possible even if the optimal style preferred favors as more defensive play style. I would make the choice to not be optimal, and will go through the lengths to find players that are okay with it. Realistic speaking it would be nice if we had a reason to stance dance instead of sitting in one stance 99.9% of the encounter. I personally feel that is not the route SE would go, they would simply go down the easier route of nerfing the offensive capabilities of the tank classes. At that point we are just moving the goal post to favor one over the other.

It would be nice if tanks and healers for that matter had a style of play that pleased every style of play in a spectrum, I just do not see it happening since any offensive capabilities granted will be broken down that the optimal play will result in the quicker clear time, which properly would mean everyone doing as much damage as humanly possible. After a few weeks we might find ourselves in the current situation we are in right now, outside of making defensive stats necessary to clearly content I do not see them being optimal for long since once players find the limits they will slowly start to remove the defensive stats in favor of more DPS.

Outside of increasing income damage as you said, remove most of the enmity tools provided, and make not only enmity generation but maintaining it harder I do not see the community sticking with a defensive meta. People will find the limitations push them till they are no longer limitations which then will become the meta. Though you are right DPS mindset players will use just enough stats to survive the incoming damage, I just do not see what will change since that style of play will become the norm like it is now. They would have to go rethink how they handle encounters as a whole since as long as most damage outside tank busters is not threatening, and enmity is a joke tank stance will be less desirable.

[Bacent]

They could also change that all tank damages is derived from vitality instead of strength, while increasing the vitality damage modifier to compensate. Would stop excessive overmelding costs and substat question for rightside at least altogether.

They used to have Tank attack was based between vit and str stats, meaning any food that gave a vit bonus was powering tanks up a bit more than any other class was getting. They had to scrap the idea because of the increasing amount of vit on things was making tanks a bit too powerful quicker than they wanted from what I remember.

Also if it was based off of Vit instead of Str, my attack power would be going up by nearly 600. I have 2255 strength as a tank right now, but I also have 2847 vit as well. That's 592 points difference. If you 'increased the vit damage modifier', then that's even more attack power.

To go off of my FC leader's Dragoon str, she has 2672 Str, meaning my base attack power would be much higher than her's.

This is something really finicky to work with, and would take a lot of discussions between players and SE staff to find some kind of middle ground that more people are happy with.

[Commander_Justitia]

Also if it was based off of Vit instead of Str, my attack power would be going up

-> "while increasing the vitality damage modifier to compensate. "

The values can be changed they did it before, tank is the only class who profits with more vitality atm, it wouldn't affect any other class. Maybe you didnt get me right at first comment, I would delete strength for tanks and just let it be vitality and that's why I would increase it again to acceptable levels. I wouldn't increase it with strength scaling still intact xD


It's just the last tiers tanks always have to use crafting accessiorces with overmelds for BiS, its a bit unfair. And they would have prevented that thing that tanks run in dps accesoirces for the first raid tier in stormblood instead of adding extra strength on any new item now to make them more desirable. They didn't actually plan to have tanks with those extra stats, that's why I think tankdmg in general should be nerfed 10-20% while dps classes go up same values. But difficult to balance now such major changes, would be stuff for 5.0...

[Bacent]

-> "while increasing the vitality damage modifier to compensate. "

The values can be changed they did it before, tank is the only class who profits with more vitality atm, it wouldn't affect any other class. Maybe you didnt get me right at first comment, I would delete strength for tanks and just let it be vitality and that's why I would increase it again to acceptable levels. I wouldn't increase it with strength scaling still intact xD

No, I had you right, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I said the OLD system we had during 3.X was a mix of Str/Vit. Never did I say you were suggesting a mix of those. I gave my current Str and Vit values. There's almost 600 points difference. If you suddenly ignore str and go off of vit, and then increase the modifier, tanks would be doing MUCH more damage than they are right now, no matter if they had Direct Hit melded or whatever. My attack power would skyrocket to 2847 without that 'vit damage modifier' like you mentioned.

Also saying 'Tanks are the only class who profits off of vit' is a hugely false statement. Many DPS/Healers have vit melded for raiding because they need that extra HP to survive some of the multi raid wide hits back to back, and having those points increases the chance of you not being dead and doing zero DPS. You have 41000+ HP as your dragoon with your current gear, but not everyone has that much HP when they go to raid, so the vit melds help.

It's also only the OT who doesn't have their damage nerfed, since they don't have tank stance up. The MT will always be doing much less damage, and on occasion with the OT as well in the case of Sigmascape 3 Savage, since mini-bosses appear in it

[Commander_Justitia]

No, I had you right, I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

Sigh they switched tank stats so often that I mixed it up, still thought both stats count atm maybe because of warrior who benefits from higher HP for some skills idk. Still with that in mind you know why I wrote that no other class profits so much from vit than tanks, it was the damage factor, its obvious that you need vitality sometimes melded as damage dealer but no other class ever got it as an dmg increase. I am not sure why you had to understand that in such a general context when we are talking about something very specific here -_- My fisher profits from vitality too...

My point still stands though lol, they can use only 1 stat -> vitality to determine the dmg output/ attack power...It's not that difficult to find formulas that align very close to the existing ones, even if their are big gaps in the total stats you seem to worry about.
Another way would be that only vitality would be allowed for melding in the mainstat slot. Which tanks couldn't meld then at all because it's their primary mainstat on accessories. Which would be fine, because I don't think that tanks are happy with having to craft 4-5 pieces every raid tier and overmelding for the best set. Best item should be savage raids or upgraded tomestone item.

Fixed it for you.

If you look at some statistics, warrior (the tank with the highest damage) does about 80% of the damage of ninja (the dps with the lowest damage).

Okay... lets turn the numbers then, a very good warrior does around 75% of a very good Ninja, Bard, Redmage, Dragoon and Machinist dmg output.
->The potential difference between a good war(or war with slightly better gear) and a midcore damage dealer are very slim. Again... why play damage dealer then, a few more war's in a group means more mechanic cheese and less dying by 1 shot dd mechanics.