Monk 4.2 Adjustments

[BucklesTrespen]

I personally think if they wanted to go the riddle route then they should have had them just replace the fists and not just double our number of buttons to manage them - especially given they said they were trimming down on ability bloat this expansion. This could have worked sort of how thunder and stones get upgraded to II / III / IV. Fists of Earth could have just evolved into Riddle of Earth at 64 (and a trait granted at that level for an additional 5% damage).

Tornado Kick could them consume all stacks and give a buff called Rolling Thunder which lasts thirty seconds.

We could have had another ability - Hurricane Kick - that consumes rolling thunder and 3 chakra to grant GL 3.

Boom.
Done.
Monk's get a far more reliable means to reacquire GL3. If GL3 is lost, we still use our GL dump for jumps. No more "shall I use Tornado Kick or roll the dice and pray I get hit under Riddle of Earth". No more upcoming Riddle of Wind which just adds needless steps to the process by having us... change stances (FoW) - tackle - tackle - change stances (FoF) - just to refresh stacks or get to GL2.

This Riddle of Wind change - for dungeons is great, probably. For raids - it's a muddy mess of a fix. For jump phases around 30 seconds long this will be our new Downtime Dance.

Change stances (FoW) - tackle - tackle - [BOSS JUMPS] Riddle of Earth (wait to get hit....) - change stances (FoF). All this while rebuilding Chakra and trying to maintain Coeurl Form.

My suggestion, which took all of a minute a week ago - gives us the same window for refreshing GL3 - grants us an actual new ability (we were the only job to not receive one this expansion - while classes like NIN got THREE!)

[wereotter]

No its not an elitist attitude.Hate the way people throw that word around for no reason.
The fact is that monk has always been about being the high skill ceiling melee dps with the reward of high dps.
If you take that away then you take away the draw of playing monk in the first place.
Giving 2 stacks of gl on wind would be rediculous and probably encourage people to not pay attention to their stacks.

One of the big things this expansion, though, was to reduce the floor/ceiling disparity for players on a job. That's why you saw things like the changes to the cast times on BRD/MCH and Enochian being attached to just being in Astral Fire/Umbral Ice. They're intentionally making jobs easier to play so that more players can play more jobs without suffering.

There will always be a gap between novice and master players of a job, but they want to make that gap as small as possible, and if more opportunities to gain and maintain the core job mechanic of monk are introduced, making it easier to play, then that's not a bad thing. New players to the job will have an easier time getting into it, and master players will figure out how to best utilize these skills to their full potential.

[Mahrze]

This. . . this is just a bad elitist attitude.

You realize if it creates too much of a skills gap they're just going to nerf it right?

Personally, I disagree. MNK has always been a high skill job. Ramp up and keeping your stacks, the positional req bonus damage, knowing how to weave and burn your OGCD abilities. As mindless as it can be seen at times, MNK requires quite the attention.

There will always be a gap between novice and master players of a job, but they want to make that gap as small as possible, and if more opportunities to gain and maintain the core job mechanic of monk are introduced, making it easier to play, then that's not a bad thing. New players to the job will have an easier time getting into it, and master players will figure out how to best utilize these skills to their full potential.

This exactly, but I can't disregard his point when I see MNKs (and DPS in general) make poor use of their abilities. And no, I am not talking about you have to be 90th percentile or get out. I m talking about seeing MNKs standing with the tank, hitting the mob/boss and ignoring positionals.

...

I mean, if they need to QoL SB abilities at this point, RoE should deny getting any shield just like Darkside doesn't allow you to get any MP, forcing MNK to take the hit; I mean, we have like 20% def bonus at one point, might as well make it worthwhile.


Way too many things can be proposed, which to me shows how MNK doesn't have a design focus.

[wereotter]

I mean, if they need to QoL SB abilities at this point, RoE should deny getting any shield just like Darkside doesn't allow you to get any MP, forcing MNK to take the hit; I mean, we have like 20% def bonus at one point, might as well make it worthwhile.

I think many monks agree that if they're going to adjust RoE in light of how it is impacted by shields, many would just prefer that you get the GL refresh when you activate the ability and also possibly that earth's reply activates at that point as well. It seems silly that you go into riddle of earth when you're about to eat raid-wide damage, but don't get your bonus shield until after the damage has already gone out.

[Mahrze]

I think many monks agree that if they're going to adjust RoE in light of how it is impacted by shields, many would just prefer that you get the GL refresh when you activate the ability and also possibly that earth's reply activates at that point as well. It seems silly that you go into riddle of earth when you're about to eat raid-wide damage, but don't get your bonus shield until after the damage has already gone out.

I was avoiding it being direct about it but that is my sentiment too. Even better would be that earth's reply freezes GL until you take a hit. (But that might be too OP)

[BucklesTrespen]

60 second Perfect Balance.

This are going to get interesting around this joint.

[Mahrze]

PB at 60 is easy free damage at this point. But with that I don't see the need to have RoW if PB is down to 60. FoW opener seems like a thing.

[wereotter]

PB at 60 is easy free damage at this point. But with that I don't see the need to have RoW if PB is down to 60. FoW opener seems like a thing.

It'll likely be a niche GL refresh like RoE is now. If you have Shoulder Tackle up and need to close the gap while GL is low, you can refresh it? Will have to play around with it and see, but I could see the possibility of an opener of Wind Tackle > Demolish > Riddle of Wind > Dragon Kick > Fists of Fire > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch. So, like you said, lets you get your stacks just slightly slower than using Perfect Balance, but lets you save that skill for later in the encounter.

[BucklesTrespen]

PB at 60 is easy free damage at this point. But with that I don't see the need to have RoW if PB is down to 60. FoW opener seems like a thing.

I think Riddle of Wind was aimed at dungeons - keeping GL between groups of mobs the same as how other classes can refresh their core mechanic between packs or just have double their duration.

I mean, RoW can be used for raids - and probably should- but it's an overly long process - which I think is why PB saw this treatment. Easier to just PB after a jump phase than FoW - WT - RoW - [Boss Jumps] - RoE - wait for hit - FoW -- all while recharging Chakra and maintaining Coeurl form...

[Mahrze]

It'll likely be a niche GL refresh like RoE is now. If you have Shoulder Tackle up and need to close the gap while GL is low, you can refresh it? Will have to play around with it and see, but I could see the possibility of an opener of Wind Tackle > Demolish > Riddle of Wind > Dragon Kick > Fists of Fire > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch. So, like you said, lets you get your stacks just slightly slower than using Perfect Balance, but lets you save that skill for later in the encounter.

I definitely see it at that point too, But with PB at 60, I don't see the reason to unless the target is being burned so fast that it'll jump or die within 60 sec to have RoW. I mean, I welcome the change as another way to keep our stacks (since RoW keeps 30s CD) I just have this unshakeable "why tho?" in the back of my head.

I think Riddle of Wind was aimed at dungeons - keeping GL between groups of mobs the same as how other classes can refresh their core mechanic between packs or just have double their duration.

I mean, RoW can be used for raids - and probably should- but it's an overly long process - which I think is why PB saw this treatment. Easier to just PB after a jump phase than FoW - WT - RoW - [Boss Jumps] - RoE - wait for hit - FoW -- all while recharging Chakra and maintaining Coeurl form...

Well I was thinking of FoW opener and keeping PB for a jump. RoW might be worth a TK here or there now considering the potential use.