What are the most common reasons people don't dps?

[Vyriah]

(...)

The vast majority of what I have written here is oriented toward improvement of the game. What I have been saying again, and again, and again, and again and what I am gonna say again right now is that you can solve this whole discussion by design. Litterally, you can patch the game and solve the exact matter you're talking about.

"Talking about people who do 0 DPS" isn't gonna make every do DPS. And look, every one knows it :

I'm not going to change your mind and unless you come out with something than the same crap you've been slewing you aren't going to change mine.

This sums up your current way of viewing this matter. Why bother talking about 0 DPS healers ? Is it gonna solve everything ? Is calling them lazy, incompetent, bad, snowflakes, "healer princesses" and whatever else is gonna improve the game ? It's not, they'll camp their position the exact same you all camp your position in front of me while I said contless of times I'm not opposed to what you're telling.
I'm talking about doing it in a way that works.

Why is there such a resistance to that idea ? Why is everyone come with the exact same question I answered every single time ? I'm not against healer DPS. I've done it. Every one here did. That's not what I'm talking about at all.
Explain me how you have improved the game with that thread and the one that was here before ? There's mostly the same persons saying the same things and you all head deep into it that you now identifie any different to an opposite. But how, for exemple, saying that DPS could generate lilly and that would encourage doing more DPS at any level possible as it tie healing and DPS together is a problem ? Why so much people here have to oppose this to extent they have been until now ?

Why are you all so adamant about pointing some player for what you can find in the way the game is made ?
Because you always play a game the way it's made, FF XIV needs something from outside of the game to recah what you are talking about. And what I'm talking about is what you can put into the game for player to reach what you are talking about by themselves. Because the same way everyone here absolutly seem to not want to hear what I say just because I'm the one saying it, every 0 DPS healer isn't gonna listen to what you say exactly because you're saying it.

I'm not here to convince any one, I'm not in a "side" or whatever. I don't think saying "but, there's some DPS that sucks too !!" is anything better. I'm just talking about the game and what you could do with it.

[Squintina]

Healing are the more situational role. That's because, while tanks and DPS must mainly deal with a highly-scripted AI, healers must deal directly with humans to fill his role. Why they don't DPS or stop DPS'ing completly? That question is what this topic was trying to answer before its goals changed to bash healers again (and again, and again, and again). And so far, most reasons were situational, where it IS justifiable for healers to not DPS, at least until the situation becames more manageable.

While I haven't talked in this thread much, I have been reading it since the start and I do recall the majority of people already accounted for what you said. If a fight warrants that a healer has to do more healing and doesn't have time to dps, pretty much everyone has agreed that that is fine. It can and does happen depending the instance, amount of mechanics, skill level of each player, and gear can make it that a healer either has no time to dps, doesn't have the mana (yes in high level that's not an issue but in low level with lack of skill and lack of role actions it can be), or only has a few seconds to dps but at that point is just too weary to take the risk. What they specifically want to address are when a healer is just standing around doing nothing for multiple seconds (not just 1 or 2 gcd's worth) at a time.

Take this example. I main scholar and I'm leveling up the other 2 healers so I often go for my favorite roulette: MSQ. (love it <3)

I had this one run maybe a week ago in Praetorium in which I was healing as needed, and dps-ing in between. The other healer was not healing mostly because I was doing already MORE than enough (it's not ilevelsynced and most of us were overgeared), so I don't blame the other healer for not really bothering to even try to heal when I clearly had it covered. Did this other healer use that opportunity to attack?

Not until the second to last boss. There were no attacks during the entire dungeon from that other healer until we got the 2nd Ultima form right before Lahabrea (and nothing during Lahabrea at all). I never saw any of his/her dots on anything until then, nor any offensive casts. There were a few heal casts here and there when my regen would wear off and the tank got to 80% and that was it. For one of the bosses I even stopped healing because I figured if that person won't attack, maybe they'll heal..and s/he would only do regen on the tank. If anyone else accidentally got damaged a few times, wouldn't even bother no matter how low it got. So I went back to my mix.

So that was just horrible. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be accused of elitism but it's like "why are you even here if you're not going to play".

Likewise if that person had decided to just be casting heals all the time, it also wouldn't have been all that great as we didn't need it - though admittedly it would have been slightly better than pretty much standing still the whole time because then I could have just gone full dps.

In the end healers, tanks, and dps all have the same role: to help the party beat the boss(es). A person who's not helping is not fulfilling their role (whether it's healing, dps'ing, a caster manashifting a healer, a tank using CD's, a bard using songs, a summoner or red mage rezzing during undergeared trials where the healers are too busy healing the people who didn't die, etc..). Using one's full kit to the best of one's abilities to secure that win as smoothly as possible is what everyone should strive for. It takes practice and not everyone get it right, but as long as they're trying they'll eventually get there. A person who's barely trying never will.

[miraidensetsu]

I do approach tanks and DPS who are obviously doing something wonky and try to direct them to the right direction, it's not just healers.

Generalizing all healers who don't DPS into a single category and attack them is not "direct them to the right direction", but bash them. Guide healers in the right direction is to give them tips when needed, try to understand why he is doing that and suggest some action. It is way more complex than simply post here "all healz must deeps" without any context. Specially where healers are context-driven jobs.

But as it has been mentioned already, bad tanking and DPS aren't defended the same way as bad healing is, the other problem is the fact that an idling healer is a more prominent problem than "Ice Mages" in that while these Ice Mages are doing a whole lot wrong, they are still doing something (little damage > no damage), while a healer who is either idling or healing a player who's health is already full is doing absolutely nothing, and it's plain to see.

Again:

The healer won't be granted that he will always have 10 free seconds without any noticeable incoming damage. That time happens, but it is more frequent if the party is good. But if the party is bad? That happens often, you know. And you - and every other defensor of healer DPS - are here generalizing as all healers that don't dps are because they're lazy, they're bad and they are always doing nothing on downtime. Like if every party was good, full of great players. But that healer.

As I said, the better the party healer is in, the greater is his his DPS window. And likewise, the worse is his party, the smaller is this window. And that can reach near-zero.

[miraidensetsu]

I do agree with the core of your point and yes, a healer's overall performance is in many regards, restricted by the consistency of their group. Don't get me wrong, an Ice mage doesn't stop me DPSing, neither does a flash spamming PLD (It is entirely possible to hold rock solid agro on PLD whilst doing very negligible damage).

What will make you DPS less is an increased healing requirement because those person's mistakes. They're humans, after all. But when the situation returns to your control, you certainly will DPS as much as you can, right?

However, I will correct you a little on your point that I quoted above. First off, at the end of the day, incoming damage is still a part of that very same script. You can see the damage coming and you've usually got a good amount of time to prepare and adjust for it in casual content providing you are playing with your eyes open.

But that is not about the script itself, but how your party members reacts to it. Can you guarantee that no one will stay on the bad no matter what? That everyone will have enough ping to not get caught by a mechanic? That everyone will stay next to you when you drop some AoE heal/buff? That everyone will be properly equipped? Everyone already knows that boss mechanics and what they do? You can't guarantee that beforehand, even on statics. They're humans, they can miss. And that is normal.

Secondly and perhaps more importantly, triage! If there's one thing my experience has taught me well, it's the art of recognising how much healing is needed and more importantly, where it's needed in any given situation. If you're blasting multiple Cure IIs at that 1k DPS Ice Mage then you are literally wasting your time for the most part.

And how about a provoker PLD who don't even hold aggro and all monsters of a wall to wall is attacking everyone that is running for their lives? I know that this situation don't happen so often, but can happen if the provoking PLD is also undergeared. And a single regen won't solve that. Yes, I was in situations like that more times than I wanted (but if the party survives I feel myself godly).

Don't you agree with me that the higher the healing requirement of the situation at hand, the less likely you will be DPS'ing?

I prefer to simply throw a regen at them and leave them to it, that's 21 seconds where I don't have to baby sit them in most dungeons and for the most part, that's plenty enough to keep them going. In situations where it isn't, that's because they've just got themselves one shot and nothing you could do was going to save them from that anyway. This holds true for a surprising amount of mainstream content and it's usually only those occasional moments where a boss is about to do an unavoidable AoE right after a painful mechanic.

The problem with the ice mage are the DPS checks, like enrage timers. And those trash pulls that lasts a year to die if I don't spam Holy and raises the healing requirements.

But why I must think that the ice mage are a holy entity that can't be ever criticized while the party is hitting enrage even with my DPS contribution?

TLDR: Don't take someone else's mistakes and make them your own.

That's my words. Let's call who is really due. But everytime there are someone saying "But deeps don't miss".

And again: I'm not tellin that there aren't lazy healer. There are. But overcriticizing healers telling all of them is not contributing?

Doing a modest amount of damage as a healer absolutely isn't maximum effort in any stretch of the imagination. Maintain your dots and the vast majority of people will be happy with that, it's not until you hit savage and beyond that people start expecting more than that.

If the healer (like that on this log) is solo healing Ultimate Coil, he isn't "allowed" to do under 1K DPS (that is a modest damage)? I can imagine that he put all his effort to keep his party - that was epic - alive AND done as most as DPS as he could.

I ever tought that the good healer should cast the right spell for the right situation. And that is valid for DPS spells. Yes, I'm aware that ABC is valid for every caster, healers included. And that mentality calls for flexibility of mindset, not being narrow-minded with this or that idea of how healers must act. If he must stop DPSing to cast heals, so be it. If there aren't ant heals to do, do damage with all of your mighty. Isn't that somewhat a consensus here?

[MoroMurasaki]

As I said, the better the party healer is in, the greater is his his DPS window. And likewise, the worse is his party, the smaller is this window. And that can reach near-zero.

I don't think this can reach zero or even near zero for an entire encounter. For specific periods maybe, sure, but not overall. If a party is so bad you don't have time to keep instant-cast dots up and throw the occasional ST or AoE spammable then I don't think you're going to salvage that situation.

I get where you're coming from overall but I do have to ask have you played non-healers in late-game? I'm not even saying Savage, like dungeons over 60. I have seen more tanks and dps get called out for bad play than healers. Standards exist for tanks and dps and yet the only standard that seems to exist for healers the majority of the time is "don't wipe" and that is just not equivalent.

[Miste]

Explain me how you have improved the game with that thread and the one that was here before ?

Hate to burst your bubble, but since we have little to no control over the design of the game...why exactly do you expect us to be able to improve the game in ways that are outside our control?

The only thing we can do is discuss in these threads, make suggestions, explain how the current design works, and encourage healers to explore their DPS kit, so that's what we do. I mean you do realize none of us work for SE? Your expectations are too high and you are asking for us to accomplish something that isn't possible. We don't have the power to change the game design, only SE has that.

As for the rest I can't make much sense of what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying "oh, its pointless to tell people to DPS, not all of them will listen"...if that is what you meant well my answer is: I don't care if you think it's pointless, I'm gonna do it anyway and even if only some of them listen then it was a still a success anyway. So you might as well give up on that.

If people really want to camp their position of doing zero DPS on healer then I have to say doing that simply for the principle of it is extremely stubborn and it is just willfully not playing in a more beneficial way for no reason, because the simple fact is there is no reason for any, at least decent to average player, to use absolutely zero of their DPS kit when there are situations where there is nothing to heal or the damage is so slow that the tank hovers at 95%-99% for a long time.

The reason we "camp" our position is because there isn't really a logical argument why healers (who are not new anymore) should not use their DPS spells when there is nothing to heal. Unless the player has a disability or some such, but that is an outlier situation and not the norm.

[VanilleFang]

snip.

You criticize generalizations and then generalize yourself.

Show me where anyone has said "all healers who do not DPS are bad/lazy/etc." I'll wait.

And sorry, but if you have downtime as a healer and aren't casting damage spells... what are you doing? What else could you be doing?

[Vyriah]

Hate to burst your bubble, but since we have little to no control over the design of the game...why exactly do you expect us to be able to improve the game in ways that are outside our control?

I don't care if you think it's pointless, I'm gonna do it anyway and even if only some of them listen then it was a still a success anyway. So you might as well give up on that.

You answer your own question.

Watching for player feedback is pretty common nowdays, especially for online games. It's like decisions to add or change something are taken at complete random. Keeping player feedback is a reason to get those forum up in first place. So yes, talking about something on the forum can have a positive impact it the game.

And I told multiple time the problem isn't why some one shouldn't do DPS, it's about why they don't and :

And as already underligned, there's a lot a things that would comfort players in general in to continuing playing that way. There's one healer in dungeon each dungeon, there's few communication between players in them, healers tend to get a lot of commend because they're are healer, the average level is closer to them that the uptime crazy SCH and bad attitude of mostly premade lv gain players will comfort them that what they're doing is right, even if it's standing here doing nothing.

This. Again.
And even then, this shouldn't be such problematic matter. I have been leveling my BRD lately And I barely ever ended up with non DPS healer. Hard not to notice when healer DPS given the kinda noises healer DPS produce. So it's not like it's such a dramatic concern.

[Miste]

So yes, talking about something on the forum can have a positive impact it the game.

Did you read what I said? Because you are just repeating what I just said.

You said you expect us to improve the game with our threads, but the fact is they might not no matter how much we post. Nothing any of us can do to change that, only SE can. If SE listens, ok, if not, there is not much else we can do except keep posting and discussing.

That's why I said we discuss on the forums...yet you are trying to tell us it is pointless while also saying that discussing on the forums can have positive impact on the game....

Yeah? I know that that is why we discuss things here.

So why are you in here telling us it is pointless then? You are contradicting yourself.

I think there is too much of a language barrier here. I am possibly not understanding you and you are definitely not understanding me.

[RopeDrink]

if you have downtime as a healer and aren't casting damage spells... what are you doing? What else could you be doing?

They could be healing the 99.99% HP tank with Cure II seeing as they just took a negligible auto-attack from a dungeon mob? OK, OK, might be too soon to crack out the jokes, but I've already expended most of my points across several pages here, so I'll at least try to be constructive.


The bulk of criticism isn't being aimed at Healers who |can't| DPS -- if you need to heal, you need to heal (however, 'need' is a variable - there's no need to heal a DPS'er that's on 95% health if you know there's no incoming mechanics, for example).
The bulk of criticism isn't being aimed at Healers who |do| DPS -- but aren't hitting some magical number (at least outside of progressive content)
The bulk of criticism is most definitely being aimed at Healers who |have the opportunity to do 'something'| -- and choose to do absolutely nothing worthwhile. Repeatedly.

Whether it's casual dungeons, standard raids or savage, this adds to the pool of problems arising from all sources, including Tanks & DPS, into a big ball of slowness that hinders the entirety, meaning it is a noticeable factor no matter where your team is. Waited 40mins for a dungeon, only to be grouped with 1k x 2 DPS, an emnity only Tank and a pure-Healer? Well, some may not be phased by the slow pace, but it sure bugs me when I notice that things could so easily be sped up with a little effort (but people choose not to for no valid reason).

I can't speak for every Healing class but, as a WHM, I'll say this:

I don't look at an <100% healthbar as a priority (outside of very specific situations). There's a plethora of times where the team will have taken a light-AoE mechanic so that everyone is down to, say, 80-90% health (eg. Ala Mhigo 1st/2nd boss AoEs), followed by a long period where only the tank will take damage. Do I 'have' to Medica or lash out Cures? Absolutely not. I'm going to stack those DoT's and prepare for the next mechanic phase. When I'm tanking or DPS'ing, however, I'll notice many Healers who see healthbars being under 100% and immediately react in a predictable fashion. It's nice (and part of the job), but not necessary 'at that time'. Same can be said for the tanks - I don't prioritize keeping them at '100%', I prioritize the simple concept of ensuring they have plenty of health to work with, whereas we've all seen healers who force themselves into a "Must keep everyone tip-top at all times" style that is neither necessary nor efficient. There will be moments during certain content where you absolutely have to put more attention into fixing the group up right there and then, but in most casual content this often doesn't apply.

I'll use any opportunity I have to throw a rock. If I know a situation is upcoming (such as tri/quad pull of nastiness), I'll make my own opportunities with QC-Holy, even if it's just to get one trash-wide AeroIII and one or two extra Holy's before the inevitable "now I need to focus 99.99% on the tank for the next 10 seconds" moment -- if I'm going to be reduced into a Cure-Bot, it'll always be with at least one AoE DoT ticking - and even then I'll be looking to use Benison or the next QC-Holy when the stun-immunity has faded if the fight is going on long enough, even if that tense moment isn't even close to being concluded yet. Why? I don't have to keep the tank/party at 100% to get through that mess > I just need to keep people healthy. There's a huge difference.

Again, yes, there are content types with mechanics that are designed to check the Healing specifically, to which you need to adapt, and in such cases (eg. Let's say OS1 Charybdis) - nobody of sane mind is going to say "Hey, dude, just because the entire raid is on 1% doesn't mean you should stop throwing dem rocks, we need da deeps!"

I'm perfectly understanding of, say, Healers entering a dungeon for the first time and exercising caution. I'm perfectly understanding of a Healer who notices a somewhat squishy team being a bit lax with damage intake, mitigation, or just taking forever during burst damage to get anything dead (and wanting to play it safe at those times). I'm perfectly understanding of the fact that not everyone is looking to optimize... But I have absolutely no care or understanding for those who are literally force-fed windows of opportunity to be doing something other than over-healing (and pissing that up the wall by standing there watching everyone else work while they pick their nose waiting for a healthbar to go down to 99%), especially in situations where players are clearly at barely any risk at all.

Again, I consider Poisontongue/Skalla as a good example give almost every lead-up to the bosses involves mega-pulls and the bosses themselves have vastly different opportunity windows, with Poisontongue actually being the most forgiving of the three (provided you have DPS who aren't eating tail-swipes or mouth-beams constantly). Kelpie - no need to monitor health outside of inevitable bloody-puddle and the inevitable movement-mess during orb-link. Even Torpedo (ST attack) is pretty pitiful. Of the three bosses, this is the only one that will really test to see if the Healer is awake, given a lot of the chaos is out of their control if people aren't coordinating. The Old One is only going to give you something to do if the Tank can't keep him facing away from the group at all times. Otherwise, you can DPS it 80% of the time. Poisontongue does negligible damage himself - the only intake is from the unavoidable Orb/Circles, assuming people aren't eating above mentioned beams/swipes and stacking up +Damage debuffs. 1st boss and specific trash packs aside, there is a wealth of opportunities for a Healer (especially a WHM) to shine, yet why do I see so many walk in there like they've lost function in one of their arms and can't seem to find half their spells?

Is it fear? Is it a mentality? Is it just poor play? Laziness? That is what the topic is asking. Why not? As someone above has said, just because it is asked (and discussed at length, sometimes 'pointedly' so) that doesn't make it an outright paint-brush waving assault on every Healer, much like it isn't forgiving DPS'ers doing unacceptable damage or overgeared Tanks sitting in def-stance and over-aggro'ing with emnity-combos and little else.