Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Shurrikhan]

Bad players being bad players. Quite literally nothing more, nothing less IMO.

I actually have to disagree with this last point. Early on, XIV faced even more problems with specific ISPs taking incredibly strange routes to XIV's servers (and only to XIV's servers) that seemed to double-up in penalty in regards to AoE zones. Worse still, one could vary by up to some 150 ping just between different instances of the same fight. Their polling rate (frequency of positional checks) was also merely half what it is now.

During Titan HM and later Ex, I had to count down the mechanics by timelog and leave almost a half second early just to leave my plume with everyone else's without dying to said plumes even if at the far edge of the arena.

There was definitely more to that time than mere excuses, and the sheer range and seeming randomness of one's ping was certainly frustration-inducing.

(In agreement)
The weirdest thing, though, was how willing ARR players seemed willing to take all that on the chin, as long as people were doing what they could (such as my finding a way to fight blind). And when the latency got so bad around peak times for my broadband internet (a regional monopoly, with $40/month between my current tier, sufficient for other MMOs, and the next) that I had to quit my static for one playing during nearer the midday, they were entirely understanding.

Toxicity may have been an occasional thing when subbing for statics with their own, very distinct ways of doing things, or in Ex trial pugs, but on the whole ARR was a comparatively friendly community, from what I've seen of it across 3 servers, and most players who came to check out the game from other MMOs were already present in at least their current portions at that time, if not in greater portion (having since moved on during content lulls).

[Nora_of_Mira]

Until one of the DPS (or OT) isn't watching their aggro and gets a death cone on the entire raid. Seen it more than once.

now if it was an cone that did x% more damage per person its hitting and always wiped the party, it would be a REAL ex primal.

edit: what was worse imo were the Main tanks that didn't use their aggro combo, leaving just me, the Off tank, and a BLM with hairs width of aggro between us and the boss. Fun times.

[Kazrah]

It's certainly a balance issue. Although hardcore raiders want more challenging content (and devs indeed wish to provide that), the echoes of Gordian Savage ring through the halls of SE, reminding them of what happens when content is made too difficult to the point where jobs are ruled out on a globally universal level. There's probably a desire to expand the percentage of players competing in savage content, which would lead to more reason for them to make that content easier while providing unending raids to keep the more consistent savage players content.

As for me personally, I don't really do savage mostly because I don't really care. Endgame for me is either extreme primals (usually against my will) or 24-player raids, because the most entertaining combat mechanic for me has always been the difficulty of getting 24 people to communicate.

[Metalwrath]

Is there any reason why you ignored the other questions I asked you? You explicitly stated that the community became more "hateful" as a result of players migrating to ARR from other MMO's. I offered counter-arguments to this statement that you ignored.

Bad players being bad players. Quite literally nothing more, nothing less IMO.

Actually you didnt give any real counter argument.And like i said the trend started with those players which led to the attitude that still exists today.ie being toxic to players over gear/dps parses,failing a mechanic.When people act toxic in this way it starts a trend and then becomes a norm unless something is done about it.Se have tried to address the issue by nerfing content or buffing jobs but this is and always will be the wrong way to approach it.I havent ignored anything you stated.

[Moomba33]

I don't really see more hate towards endgame fights in SB compared to earlier in this game's life. Closest I can think of is the "waste of resources" argument that sprouted up around Ultimate Coil.

The Shinryu nerf requests weren't any more extreme than the complaints that came up around the Steps of Faith. Hashmal complaints aren't really any different than the Weeping City complaints of Heavensward.

Some complaints that existed in ARR don't even have an equivalent now like the story gating in Coil being resolved by normal mode raids in the expansions. Or the difficulty of pre-nerf Pharos Sirius dungeon never coming up for future dungeons since they've all been easy since then.

So part 1 of my answer is: I don't think there was a straw that broke the camel's back as difficulty complaints are nothing new.

As for why this is I'd say it comes down to a lack of difficulty curve in the overall game. After going through 100+ hours steamrolling over content it can come as a system shock when failure has consequences. Some people are motivated by challenges and want to improve and overcome them. Some people are discouraged and would rather go do something else when they hit a wall. Some will complain and hope the challenge level is brought down to a level they deem acceptable. Others simply don't enjoy the challenge presented by this game (strict memorization to avoid instant deaths) and may hope that feedback will lead to different challenges they can enjoy.

Part 2 of my answer is essentially that a sudden bump in difficulty will be handled by different people in different ways depending on whether they find the presented challenge enjoyable or not.

[alimdia]

Anyone who thinks the raiding community is toxic should walk around this lovely thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...vent./page1397

DF community is by far more toxic, yet I don't see any of you saying you will stop using DF to avoid those toxic players, so why is that an argument for end game fights?

[SenorPatty]

eventually tho "having fun" gives way to "i'm tired of wiping", "i want to clear" and then that leads to drama.

I am this close to using this as a sig.

I think I'll wait for just one more "its just a game" line in DF...

[KaldeaSahaline]

I actually have to disagree with this last point. Early on, XIV faced even more problems with specific ISPs taking incredibly strange routes to XIV's servers (and only to XIV's servers) that seemed to double-up in penalty in regards to AoE zones. Worse still, one could vary by up to some 150 ping just between different instances of the same fight. Their polling rate (frequency of positional checks) was also merely half what it is now.

During Titan HM and later Ex, I had to count down the mechanics by timelog and leave almost a half second early just to leave my plume with everyone else's without dying to said plumes even if at the far edge of the arena.

There was definitely more to that time than mere excuses, and the sheer range and seeming randomness of one's ping was certainly frustration-inducing.

Forgive me, I should have been clearer. I was not referring to the server settings/issues in the beginning of ARR. Those are fairly well documented and the difference of before and after were insanely evident to anyone affected. I personally had a good connection, in fact my connection then was considerably better than it is now, because I had no issues with L3, but I cannot play this game past 8pm EST without mudfish because of SE's budget SLA agreement with NTT.

The context of my post was in regards to the "DPS check and WAR claims". Not the inability for a high latency player to dodge hair trigger telegraphs.

As for me personally, I don't really do savage mostly because I don't really care. Endgame for me is either extreme primals (usually against my will) or 24-player raids, because the most entertaining combat mechanic for me has always been the difficulty of getting 24 people to communicate.

I'm surprised you find coordinating 23 other people fun. Speaking personally that's always been one of the worst parts of raiding, and part of why I enjoy raiding being 8 man in this game. Not saying your opinion is wrong or anything, merely surprising.

Actually you didnt give any real counter argument.And like i said the trend started with those players which led to the attitude that still exists today.ie being toxic to players over gear/dps parses,failing a mechanic.When people act toxic in this way it starts a trend and then becomes a norm unless something is done about it.Se have tried to address the issue by nerfing content or buffing jobs but this is and always will be the wrong way to approach it.I havent ignored anything you stated.

I will requote again the 2 questions you have ignored twice now.

Humor me, is it just as possible that maybe Titan HM was the first piece of content in the game that required a modicum of reflexes/skill and as such caused a divide between skilled/unskilled players?

Explain to me why you believe SoF and Thornmarch EX were "very toxic".

Would you mind citing your data that shows that the trend started with players migrating from other games? I'd love to know how you personally were able to identify each individual as to where they came from and how they directly contributed to it.

Really looking forward to reading it. If you don't have any data that's fine, just make sure you specify in your post that it is your opinion, one that appears drenched in bias and emotion.

Anyone who thinks the raiding community is toxic should walk around this lovely thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...vent./page1397

DF community is by far more toxic, yet I don't see any of you saying you will stop using DF to avoid those toxic players, so why is that an argument for end game fights?

My experience matches this as well sadly.

[Johaandr]

People who complain sucks.
Being brutally honest here. Its the truth and there is no way to argue against it. Dont like how savage work? Dont do it.
People who complains savage is hard shouldnt even play end game content. End of story.

I also HATE nerf of battles and i WISH Older contents has set iMin lvl when you que stuff.

"You dont pay my sub" . Well idc cuse i will kick you out of my party.

Not sure if any1 gets the point cuse i sound like an asshole now:T

[odintius]

I just see cross server party finder as another df option you get same results random player get random player skill for Savage/extemes. If people did use the tools given and find whatever skill type player to do content we wouldn't see as many complaints.

Although people like convenience and chose using duty finder because it's faster and not much effort in let say starting a group because lets get real that take effort to find that player, but the people who do though have better outcome and less toxic experience imo. /Shrugs