Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Cakekizyy]

https://eq.magelo.com/profile/500985is an old charcter from my second server before I moved to FV for life. Was originally on Inny iirc.

[Selova]

I see it as a negative design wise, to each their own.

That's why they are the developers and you aren't. I also highly doubt you have any experience with encounter design, so let's leave it to the people who do. Thanks.

[ViolaCrossfire]

I would not call Enrage Timer a challenge. It's an instant kill mechanic. It's actually a very lazy way to give the appearance of challenge. It goes back the the arcade days when the point of the game was to make you spend more quarters. Are we playing a bullet storm or platform game.

It actually points to the fact that the game design is bad.

You are ignoring the fact that 95% of the wipes are not caused by enrage but rather snowballing mechanics.

Just out of curiocity what is your stance on mid-fight dps checks? Are they also quarter consumers?

[VanilleFang]

Uh. Requiring stun rotations and enrage timers aren't mutually exclusive though? And tanks can stun without a rotation soooo...

[Bobs]

Uh. Requiring stun rotations and enrage timers aren't mutually exclusive though? And tanks can stun without a rotation soooo...

The question was what would i do to introduce challenge. I'm telling you that the game needs to make changes soooo, tanks would not have infinite stun just like healer would not have infinite mp?

Maybe it would be to hard for you to need to coordinate with the other dps? The fact is; that you are the ones that don't want challenge. You just want to mindlessly press 1,2,3,4 as fast as you can and see your score (parse) at the end. Any real challenge would make parses useless, can't have that can we.

[Deithwen]

Snip.

When I read your posts, one thing comes to my mind : you seem to have absolutly no clue how the raids are in FF14 and yet make assumptions about it and the people interested in it.
Raids are not just about dodging aoes and executing your rotation.

[Zeich]

The question was what would i do to introduce challenge. I'm telling you that the game needs to make changes soooo, tanks would not have infinite stun just like healer would not have infinite mp?

Maybe it would be to hard for you to need to coordinate with the other dps? The fact is; that you are the ones that don't want challenge. You just want to mindlessly press 1,2,3,4 as fast as you can and see your score (parse) at the end. Any real challenge would make parses useless, can't have that can we.

I think you're massively overstating the situation as to the fact that people want it "simple." So rather than just repeatedly claiming that those not agreeing with you want it easy, why not try different methods, such as looking at what's worked in the past?

One thing I'd like is for fights to jump off of the idea of a script. At this point, our mechanics are rather simple to the point of it being a basic dance maneuver. Looking back at XI, one of the biggest differences there is that many of your actions were adaptive to the situation as it changed. You'd pop your JAs such as Sentinel for panic moments or very specific abilities such as seeing a mob pop Hundred Fists, putting them on long cooldown so that after that instance, you'd not likely have them ready for other heavy hits such as Byakko's frequent Triple Attack, where your healers would have to be on the ball and keep an eye on your health suddenly plummeting. Your party members would have to focus debuffs based on the situation - for example, a major caster might heavily resist Silence, so you could focus on Stuns, Slows, or Paralysis to stem the onslaught of magic during heavy bursts, even if you couldn't negate it completely. Later, abilities like Addle would reduce Magic Accuracy and slow casting time, further weakening casts though not negating them.

Now, to a point, XIV isn't XI. Different stat systems, different focuses on cooldowns and abilities. So I'd like to look at the ideas, not the specifics, and move on for things I'd personally like to see:
1. Less timed scripts. When it gets to the point where we can basically predict each move as it happens and where each attack will land, it's more pressing buttons in a set sequence rather than actually reacting.
1a. To adjust to this, have two things in effect: a movelist, and a randomized timer for a small window (say, 5-10 seconds) that would trigger a random move from that list to be pulled. Have some moves triggered by various thresholds; for example, after a certain move is used, another becomes active for 1-3 windows. Another example would be HP thresholds permanently unlocking moves for the enemy to add to their list, creating a risk of more powerful or tricky moves that could be thrown into the mix when you least expect it. For example, after a tank buster where you burn a healing cooldown to boost the tank, suddenly an AoE Throat Stab (FFXI term for abilities that would knock players down to a critical HP threshold, such as Hell Wind or Charybdis for FFXIV examples) whose availability was triggered by that buster threatens the party and forces you to burn another one reactively or move to quickly AoE heal. Another time, after that tank buster, the same tank buster could load in again, requiring another single-target cooldown from the tank or healer or both. Or we have the tank buster followed by two Throat Stabs back-to-back due to a multiple window trigger. This would create the potential for unexpectedly diminishing resources, potentially requiring a tank swap to a fresh tank with more of their cooldowns available to ease the burden on healer MP or cooldown use, as well as a need for more defensive playing from DPS to adjust to the amount of damage they're taking.

2. More reliance on control abilities, particularly status ailments. Stuns are a big one, and I'd love to see them have some relevance again but on a set threshold of uses that will vary with the fight's length. A harder fight might allow for additional stuns due to the amount of extra time taken for it, for example. The number would have to be modest, rather than dropping off at 3, and I'd love to see something akin to FFXI's stun resistance, where you'll build up immunity but eventually it'll go back down. The use of other abilities for status effects would be nice too; for example, being able to use Repose or Sleep on adds to keep extra ones under control rather than having the off-tank grab multiple. The off-tank grabs the most threatening one, and you can use sleep as one method to focus them down individually. Bind or Heavy would be another, allowing a tank to kite a group while the DPS grab one and "tank" it themselves by beating it down quickly and then moving to grab the next one off of the kiting tank. Silence as well as Pacification for temporary lock-out of an ability type; say you coordinate your DPS to do 2-3 Pacifications in a row at 5 seconds each, that's 15 seconds where the enemy's move list could only pull magic abilities instead of the full list. Reverse that for Silence, allowing them only to pull physical moves and locking out magic temporarily. Give them modest cooldowns of about a minute to a minute and a half so even if you chain them all, you'd still have large periods you'd be unable to use them. They'd be fantastic for periods where healer or tank resources are getting low, reducing output or funneling it towards a specific source, allowing players to temporarily guide the fight for those panic moments.

3. As stated somewhat earlier: less focus on a set time limit, and more of a focus on exhausting resources. Rather than a hard enrage cap that says "okay, you've hit 15 minutes out of your 60 minute window, you die," there would be a focus on harder hits throughout and a sense of needing to constantly make use of mitigation and healing cooldowns, healer MP, and DPS control cooldowns to be used as a sort of filler to ease up on the use of the other resources. It would still create a soft time limit in which eventually you just run out of resources and start going down gradually, but it would open up that time limit a fair deal depending on skillful use and analysis of the situation as opposed to "okay, this move requires this, this move requires this, etc. We use X cooldown at set times for the move that always comes after the third hit, etc."

[VanilleFang]

The question was what would i do to introduce challenge. I'm telling you that the game needs to make changes soooo, tanks would not have infinite stun just like healer would not have infinite mp?

Why does it need changes though? That's you're own personal opinion.

Maybe it would be to hard for you to need to coordinate with the other dps? The fact is; that you are the ones that don't want challenge. You just want to mindlessly press 1,2,3,4 as fast as you can and see your score (parse) at the end.

I don't really play DPS so your attempts at insults was a huge miss.

[HoodRat]

Semantics bro. Why don't we start correcting each others spelling too. (you're not you'e)

Oh, the irony.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Thing is, though, that your idea of hard content seems kibda off. I'm not any more experienced in game design, but let's try your way of doing encounters... If I get it right (and I'm truly trying to get it right, correct me if I don't), the main mechanics would be stun and coordination with your group.

Well, the MNK's stun cycle is 6+seconds so, if the mechanics are unpredictable, we need, let's say, 7sec cast. Or people are just doing their stun cycle unsynched with each other... But then, the mnk who has more skill speed will be unsynced as well...

But ok, let's say you have to have a "party optimization cycle" and it works out somehow. That still leaves the "challenge" to be found, really. In a roster where everyone's just listening to the RL, party optimization isn't that hard, but it's a nightmare for pugs... But we still want hard content for both. Still, how is it hard when healers just spam heal, and tanks just ensure they don't die ?

Maybe you don't like telegraphed attacks and dps checks, but those are two mechanics that combine really well, because, when you have to run around and coordinate with your party to avoid things without killing each other, you can't deal damage... So you have to either be even more coordinated and make minimal movement, or have a perfect rotation to optimize your dps. That's not hard in a "bullet hell" way, not in a "monster hunter" way or whatever, but that's hard in a "mmo" way, I guess...

Plus, you need to consider that although the "optimize dps and avoid tellegraphed attacks" is roughly the same every time, you can't compare the mechanics of O3S and O4S, and so on. They're actually doing a pretty good job reiventing themselves...