Why the hate with endgame fights?

[CorbinDallas]

A couple people in my FC complained about the Ultimate Coil being gated behind O4S. Or about NeoExdeath being in Savage and not normal. Or about mounts not being a drop in normal primals, etc. complain to complain, to complain.

Do we not remember that thread where the OP dug their heels in and said locking UCoB was bad and everyone should have fair access to it? Then they changed their mindset later.

[Nora_of_Mira]

Do we not remember that thread where the OP dug their heels in and said locking UCoB was bad and everyone should have fair access to it? Then they changed their mindset later.

good grief. no, i did not notice. i don't understand anything anymore.

[Reinha]

I have yet to hear anyone apposed to content they're not forced to do.

Yup. I haven't recently seen anyone say savage/extereme modes are unnecessary or detrimental to the game. Criticism of reward systems, mechanics and difficulty are not hate, they are feedback. This topic seems like a straw man because the people actually "hating" or wanting content types discontinued are a few isolated cases. Instead of genuine responses this thread will just invite people to conjure opponents in their minds and mock them in posts like the one below. It's no different than imagining some toxic raiders and then bashing them.

Judging from all the nerf posts that pop all the time, -clears throat-
"Because I want to clear everything with minimal effort and time investment! Paying for a sub means all content shouldn't be just available to me, it should be given to me!"

[NephthysVasudan]

Just to be clear - I'm keep a "mentor" mentality - I want to be a part of the solution - not the problem. I'm not talking about these ego tripping mentors I report on a weekly basis - but people who genuinely help and coach players through difficulties.

Unfortunately I encounter randoms who do very foolish things like ignoring newbies requests to take it easy - ignoring the healer who says "not done this before new to this" and they go stupid over kill heavy pulls.

Yes..trial by fire...I got that figured out thank you very much. I play this game for fun - and I like to think other do so for enjoyment as well. The things I do are not savage content - not farms - not speed runs.

These are just basic dungeon/raiding teams.
And yet everywhere I go i find people who treat it like savage parties with little or no regard for said common decency.

I get called rude/salty for this mindset...yet I have a group of friends who have exact same problem and as such we do our own groups to avoid it.

Is it rampant? No - but its just enough to be a problem where I shy away from attempting such things with public groups at best.

Its why I stopped being a main healer in dungeons for sure.
I want to do the content...I love the content.
But this game's community minority or not - makes it really hard to do that.
Its the reason I left EVE Online behind....thankfully its not nearly THAT bad...I plan to stick around.

I encourage those who have the same feelings/standpoint I do to network out and group together....those of like minds...tend to get the job done quickly...and have fun.

So there you have it.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Savage content...well, if your idea of fun is fighting a single boss for fifteen minutes following an exact pattern to the letter, with deviations from it being one-shotted, well go nuts. Oh, and if your team gets one shotted enough, its enrage, just restart. And there's a pretty hard cap to difficulty to it, as well; they make it too hard, only 1% of the playerbase can beat it and the raid scene dies, because there's nothing else to do at that level.

Mind citing which 15 minute savage boss you're referencing?

While I understand your point, sometimes exaggeration hurts your case more than helping it. While you tend to be at odds with many posters here (myself included fairly frequently) I do actually agree that their design paradigm isn't what I personally call the epitome of fun because frequent one shots don't really allow for very dynamic gameplay.

The only problem I have with Normal versions is that sometimes they excluded entire phases. Ex-death and Neo-Exdeath for example. I mean it's kind of cool initially in Savage as sort of a new phase "reveal" that you haven't seen before, but only for the first time. I still think that the Neo phase should have existed in the Normal version too. Normal versions of many fights are far too easy. Too many mechanics taken out entirely and like I said before, some fights have entire phases taken out. Normal can still be easy but made more interesting by keeping the mechanics and phases from the Extreme/Savage versions.

In that case you'd be diminishing savage raiders experience. Are you ok with that?

I fully understand and agree that normal is incredibly trivial, but why don't you try Savage?

As someone who is "ready" to start savage content?

Its not the content I hate.

its the community.

This elitist "git gud" attitude and obsession with parser's really makes me not EVER want to do it.

At least until I get a large enough group of friends who respect one another and don't give a rats ass about perfection...but about having fun in clearing said content.

Just my 2 cents.

You've made it fairly clear you are concerned about being held accountable for your performance and that you'd possibly be open to tackling Savage if you could find 7 others who would like to just try without any expectations (week 1 learning parties are very good for this btw).

Personally, I believe you're significantly overstating the "git gud/elistism/parser" bit a lot. As a person who has cleared this tiers Savage and most of it in pugs, the only time anything like this gets brought up is if someone is egregiously not contributing to the success of the team (i.e. 1600 DPS tank, 0 DPS healer, someone who is dead numerous times, 2k DPS SAM, etc.).

If you're at all interested in advice, it would be go in do your best, accept responsibility when you make a mistake and try to fix it. Even when people are frustrated, it's incredibly hard to take it out on someone who is trying and not making excuses.

I will help teach even some of the most awful players in this game if they accept responsibility, ask for help, and try their best. I like to believe others share this sentiment.

I will not devote an iota of time/effort to any player who makes excuses, or simply isn't trying and is looking for a hard carry.

I have to agree with this. It's not the content people hate, but the people that run it. The harder the content, the douchier the players involved. Most have no patience and expect perfection. If something goes wrong, there is always blaming or finger pointing going on, even in learning groups. Obviously not every person in higher end game fights are douchie, but you tend to find most of the toxic folk here.

Ironic. I find that the douchiest of players congregate at DF level. Here are some of my recent experiences:

• I spend more time getting called names for playing well
• Carrying players who were near AFK (pressing a button every 9-12s)
• Watching people talk trash based on flat out inaccurate assumptions (so and so you're not doing any DPS I am watching you, meanwhile that person is only 30 DPS behind them, and the HEALER IS ABOVE BOTH, and I the tank am above all 3...
• Being reported for asking a healer to DPS (they did EXACTLY 0 dps). They were active less than 18% of the entire dungeon. Imagine if I a tank or a DPS was only active 18% of a dungeon, how much fun would YOU be having?
• Being told I should have been aborted for ASKING if the other tank wanted some tips, not giving tips, merely asking if they were interested.
• Kicked from an FC because I said that Lakshmi EX was disappointing as an EX primal.
• Top DPS in Rabanastre on 2 bosses as a tank, (no bonuses in my alliance, can't speak for others).
• 2 back to back runs of O3N where I was top DPS as tank by a staggering margin, neither run had bonus. Fun fact, DIDN'T GET ANY LOOT EITHER.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Ironic. I find that the douchiest of players congregate at DF level. Here are some of my recent experiences:

• I spend more time getting called names for playing well
• Carrying players who were near AFK (pressing a button every 9-12s)
• Watching people talk trash based on flat out inaccurate assumptions (so and so you're not doing any DPS I am watching you, meanwhile that person is only 30 DPS behind them, and the HEALER IS ABOVE BOTH, and I the tank am above all 3...
• Being reported for asking a healer to DPS (they did EXACTLY 0 dps). They were active less than 18% of the entire dungeon. Imagine if I a tank or a DPS was only active 18% of a dungeon, how much fun would YOU be having?
• Being told I should have been aborted for ASKING if the other tank wanted some tips, not giving tips, merely asking if they were interested.
• Kicked from an FC because I said that Lakshmi EX was disappointing as an EX primal.
• Top DPS in Rabanastre on 2 bosses as a tank, (no bonuses in my alliance, can't speak for others).
• 2 back to back runs of O3N where I was top DPS as tank by a staggering margin, neither run had bonus. Fun fact, DIDN'T GET ANY LOOT EITHER.

In no way patronizing or condescendingly. . . /hug.

I've been there. It's not right, and not fair.

[Nora_of_Mira]

• Kicked from an FC because I said that Lakshmi EX was disappointing as an EX primal.
  

that's the funniest one. I'm not an endgame tank by a long shot and I was able to tank 99 runs over a week with only PUGs. it was pretty fun as a mid-skill tank but it was not punishing AT ALL for any mistakes. And the stuff I saw in those 100+ PUGs... man oh man there are some interesting folks out there.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

See, that's the thing with fun. It's a concept that varies among players.

Fun for some is playing at the highest level. Fun for some is taking it easy. Fun for some is team effort. Or solo for others.

I love PvP in this game, as imperfect as it was, and even as worse as it is now. A larger majority of players of this game HATE it. I've accepted that, and while I don't impose my love of it on others, for those who are curious enough to step in, I try to help them learn what they need to learn to have a better experience. Some embrace it, others meet it with defiance, and some even WANT to remain ignorant of what to do, often citing "fun" as the reason or justification why. It is not "fun" to see people make critical mistakes that can cost the team, nor would it be fun to not speak up and help them avoid said mistakes, all for the sake of not impacting their "fun". I don't think I've ever met anyone who has fun losing a game.

It needs to be noted, however, that "I play for fun" is a very old and tired excuse for refusal to adapt, especially in the gaming world. When the game calls for higher levels of skill, or perhaps greater rewards or achievement in game calls for greater effort, "playing for fun" isn't a reason to refuse to adapt, and often pushing yourself to go higher opens your eyes to another level of "fun". This doesn't mean you have to do so, and FFXIV's devs even prefer to keep a low bar so that it's not necessary, but for those who go up, coming back down often isn't so fun. What's noted however is a refusal to go up by many, and that, in effect, drags us all down. That might sound like I'm placing blame, but I'm not. It's simply me pointing out that "playing for fun" doesn't excuse anyone from trying to play better or perform at a higher level where and when the game calls for it.

[SilverObi]

"Why doesn't everyone like something?" People have different motivations, ability, and interests and are not a hive mind.

This is not simple to boil down to just "bads being bad" or "entitlement". And this isn't even really a parser issue though it can tangentially relate to it. I certainly enjoy the harder fights that I have done but don't like doing them without people I know and can trust will be competent and have fun with it if something goes wrong. In short I don't like doing tough fights with randos, that's my (admittedly slightly unreasonable) reason for not being up to date on content. Does this mean I hate those fights? Nope.

Some people do however want all content accessible to all ranges of skill and as someone who's done many "unfair" challenges in gaming, I think that's simply impossible. There has to be a nature of exclusivity in content and/or reward for those that want to rise up and put in the effort. And that means the easier content won't always reward comparable things at the same pace or even at all. That's okay and most people, even the anti-parser crowd, agree with that.

Not liking certain content doesn't automatically mean that they want it gone or dumbed down it's just something they don't care for and would like resources poured into content they DO like first rather than second. Like most humans.

I feel like OP missed the point or is taking some leaps in logic regarding how certain groups view certain content. Reasonable arguments are incredibly easy to see if you take a step back and you can quickly dismiss the strawmen and actual hard-headed players. You cannot, I repeat CANNOT, judge one group by a vocal minority especially when that minority seems to already be fractured into conflicting views. Read any vent thread and you'll quickly see everyone's experiences vary and to try and draw any sort of trends are shaky. I've been hearing about "ice mages" for years but have literally never seen one. But others have. I hear that only bad players don't want group parses but from what I've seen argued, many types of players don't care for that system and desire another. And those that demand changes be made/not made or they'll leave, well...they need to get a reality check, calm down, and maybe try thinking from the "other" side's point of view.

Are there elitists in harder content? Yeah sure there are. And there's elitists in easy content. Crappy people will be crappy people regardless of where you see them and should in no way influence how you view that part of the community. Hell even the phrase elitist has become so watered down that it's better to just call crappy players for what they are: crappy human beings. And that category includes those who can clear Ultimate and those who single-target a pack of 10 mobs cause reasons. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm saying stuff that deserves a "well DUH" but that's really how simple it is. At least to me

TL;DR: Not everyone has to like the same content and everyone has their multifaceted reasons for doing so. That's just how it is.

[KaivaC]

snip

OP is here. Here's the thing about when I make threads...I don't usually make threads unless I see a certain topic quite a bit. I'm not just talking about once or twice...if I can recount a dozen times in a certain time frame when I've seen a particular topic come up (endgame being the topic here), I will more than likely make a topic of it. I've seen it very often with Hashmal, so I made a thread about that. I've seen the thing with endgame in many of the parser threads I've responded to, as well as many other topics here in the forums over the last few months, as well as discussions as reddit. Don't get my words twisted into me suggesting that all players need to enjoy this content. I don't believe I've even made that argument in my responses here. What I've asked is what is the issue with things like 'savage is completely useless', or 'why is Exdeath/Kefka wasted on content like raiding', or even straight up opposition to it'.

As I've admitted in my original post, I'm hitting on a wide range of issues with this subject, and they can vary wildly depending on who chooses to comment here, but I've not suggested that all players SHOULD enjoy endgame.

Besides that, I like having lively discussions because honestly, I enjoy seeing different opinions on things. Of course I will challenge opinions that I don't agree with, but I will change my opinion, as I have done with the WoW topic that I got blasted for a long time ago. It's not so much a strawman as it is me just putting out a very broad subject and opening it up to discussion. I've been doing that quite a bit lately.