Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

[KaldeaSahaline]

The whole post was the answer to your question, not just the first sentence. I know my English is bad, but if you read past that one sentence you would know my answer. Sorry about my English but if you are not going to bother to read the whole post please do not bother to quote me. I know my English is not the best and may be hard to understand so I will paste it here again maybe it was lost in the shuffle.

SNIP other stuff

I read your entire post and we've covered that your English is just as good as any natives.

The point I was trying to demonstrate was that guides and information would not exist without tools like parsers. What would exist is "feelings" and "ideas" with exceptionally poor methods of validity. I've seen this before in other MMO's. In fact, a recent one was B&S. Then a third party tool was developed and changed everything. Then an official one came out and then it started only in hard content before trickling downward. Console players being at a disadvantage here isn't fun. I WOULD hate to be a console player in this game and have to rely on others for data.

To your credit, yes as an incredibly seasoned veteran of MMO's I can take a new class read the tooltips and figure out on my own a decent priority/rotation. It won't be 95%+, but I can guarantee it'd be serviceable even for entry level savage. That said, that doesn't mean it's good though and I am very far from what I would consider an average player.

My position has been stated multiple times in these threads, but I will gladly reiterate for you in case you haven't seen it.

I want an unmitigated open information official parser. I want people to see their numbers and be accountable for them in all forms of content. I want people who harass people over their performance to be punished strictly.

You are putting words in Kaldea's mouth. Nowhere in her post did she claim abuse wouldn't happen far as I can tell. She only mentioned wanting to play with people of a comparable skill level. Depending on the content, I share that sentiment. When farming Shinryu, I'm not one to stick around long if I notice I'm woefully out-dpsing the party. Why? I can find another group and kill it faster. Considering I'll need at least 99 attempts unless I get lucky (I did, thank god), I prefer fast and efficient. My stance changes in say, a learning party, where I'll be infinitely more patient.

99.9% of the time I would rather join a learning party than clear/farm. I find that learning parties have VERY clear expectations and are always open to discussion and improvement. Clear/farms almost always end up as some kind of trap where people snuck in who have no business being there thus causing tension.

Shorten the skill gap. Judging by SE's failed attempts at it, I'd say the problem isn't the game.

To be fair, the game could do an infinitely better job really explaining and testing players on their new abilities/job roles.

I'm actually honestly surprised Yoshi hasn't knee-jerked the skill gap by flat out increasing the potency on combo actions to be ~90% of your DPS. Nerf all oGCDs to only account for roughly 10% of your total output thus putting a floor of somewhere around 60-70% (because there are legitimately players who think the 2.5s GCD is so you can "think" about your next move and only push a button every 5-6s).

I could understand people playing this game for so many years, that all they have left to do in this game is to maximize the performance of each class, but the people who does that really need to ask themself a question, wouldnt it be better if they will play other games instead and get involved into them as much as they do in FF XIV and coming back after new patches?

So your solution is to reduce the active number of players who play the game, thus reducing incoming funding to create more content for you? You realize how counter productive this is right?

Instead of trying hard and losing nerves, try to play something else, so eventually game developer will make certain activity easier in order to make people playing it and winning it.

Damn it. I fell for it again. 10/10 solid troll. No self-respecting gamer would ever say this with a straight face. EVER.

Just install world of warcraft and see how it looks like there.
Its not a pleasant expierence, hence why there is no fresh blood coming to the game, like at all.

Funny,

I have it installed and it's a very pleasant experience. We just recruited tons of new players, approx. 35% of them are completely brand new to WoW. Guess there's no fresh blood coming in.

In Pugs, or random groups, they should not be allowed. People play content for different reason then you. I see no valid reason why you should have the right to point a finger a judge someones DPS. Now I think in a 100% guild group with no PUGS. Then a parser is fine. You get what you signed up for. Any group where you group with a stranger it should not be allowed.

This is such an asinine stance to take.

We all drive on the same highway, but maybe I want to drive in reverse like an idiot. I drive for a different reason than you so nope can't hold me accountable.

Hey Aniond - so glad we're on this team project together. I can't wait to work on it with you. *Sits in corner playing candy crush on phone*. Can't hold me accountable man.

Aniond my friend. Thanks for inviting me to play in your basketball game. *Takes the ball and runs into the bleachers and hides it.* What why are you mad? I'm just playing the game my way. Definitely can't hold me accountable there.

Hey Boss, I decided to take off today despite that presentation to corporate being due to today. I don't work for the same reason you do so back off. Yep, definitely not accountable there either.

Why be so hypocritical about it?

Don't kid yourself. SE would trade subscriber counts with WoW in a heartbeat. The two aren't close. WoW is doing it's usual end of expansion cycle decline, and it'll bounce back as soon as the next one comes out, as it always does (and XIV does the same).

Parsers were in WoW in vanilla, when it did it's rise to become the biggest MMO ever. It's not getting new blood now because at this point everyone who wants to play it already has at some point. It's 13 years old, after all. It's still the biggest MMO by far.

People who think WoW is dying because of parsers are so misinformed that it's comical.

Correct. Not to mention if you look at the playerbase from 2004 and compare it to now, it's definitely significantly better. Even the devs have admitted this. They have a hard time designing content hard enough because people have more information than ever and perform better as a result.

[Vstarstruck]

Sigh

How do I put this?If we were to gather a hub of a players, set about 10. 2 of them are regularly bad apples but 8 of them are good people.

According to your statement, which you have cited as an absolute time and time again, the use of a parser would have one of those 8 good people turn bad without fail.

This is how we understand your use of "more harassment" and also why it doesn't make sense to us. Since those two bad people are already bad to begin with, you can't have any "more harassment" than those two already produce. So that only leaves the argument that only way it harassment can increase in a quantifiable way is that one of the 8 good people go bad.

Do you now see why people like me and Kaldea and many others can't grasp that? Because you've stated that this exact situation will absolutely happen. It's already crazy to think that people's good behaviour in this game's current policy will absolutely change for the worst if SE decided to give the green light to full blown parse tommorow.

TL;DR: you can't quantifiably have more harassment out of a set of people who are already parsing if it already exist. Stating that it absolutely will increase implies people's current behaviour when parsing is tied directly to the tool.

You are assuming everything is black and white, that is not the real world, it is more like 2 bad apples, 6 people that hover between depending the issues at hand, a lot of people here tend not to speak at all in runs, and 2 good ones.

Some from that middle ground that you do not see is what would be pulled to harass purely based on parsers, while you can have "more harassment" from the 2 in a scope they mouth off worse.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think you're the one who is misinformed (do you even have a tank leveled?) I don't recall many actually debating tiers of tenacity. I do remember people debating tenacity OR DH as a function of durability vs. damage, with DH winning out almost universally among the raiding community.

I think you above anyone if you wanna bring your top 20 wow mentality over here would spot that quickly. Tenacity is on gear, if you have something like 780 of it, it is painfully obvious one should make use of 1 meld spot to push it to the next tier. Unless they changed how tenacity works, I wouldn't know, it is SE's fault for not being transparent with their stats to begin with. the 5% comes from assuming if a person can have absolutely ZERO tenacity and that is not going to happen.

The amounts that tend to be argued is 1-3% mitigation DIFFERENCE, not 5%, you can't have zero tenacity.

My position has been stated multiple times in these threads, but I will gladly reiterate for you in case you haven't seen it.

I want an unmitigated open information official parser. I want people to see their numbers and be accountable for them in all forms of content. I want people who harass people over their performance to be punished strictly.

In a perfect world that would be fine, but the general public does not know how to conduct themselves, thus you have these debates with a producer telling you no. The general player base does not treat things like you do. You are a minority. The problem with "I want people who harass people over their performance to be punished strictly." is not as easy as your making it sound. There are a few things to consider.

1. You cant reimburse time and kick abuse
2. How many threads/posts have you read stating on the lines of "I was about to quit and leave the game over x person acting in y fashion? How many people quit without saying a word? How much would that increase because of parsers?
3. The GM team size is small, it is likely one of the things SE has in the back of their mind, because of the high skill gap, the game's state is unable to handle the volume of calls that will happen with the release of it.

Lastly just because others where able fine tune rotations because of parsers and good for other games, does not mean it is fitting for this one, esp in the current state.

When farming Shinryu, I'm not one to stick around long if I notice I'm woefully out-dpsing the party. Why? I can find another group and kill it faster. Considering I'll need at least 99 attempts unless I get lucky (I did, thank god), I prefer fast and efficient. My stance changes in say, a learning party, where I'll be infinitely more patient.

That is why he does not want parsers, you are basically saying people are not good enough to play with, and having to farm that 99 times to begin with is called bad game design on top of things.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

What I was trying to say is that the guides will still exist since no one is asking for the removal of such tools. Being as the unofficial tools do not seem to be going anywhere, while not directly from SE they do allow an option for those that truly want access to such information. Now as many have said sure having official set of tools would be nice, but Yoshi-P has clearly showed his disdain for such tools, and will use whatever information or data to support his position. Just personally do not see the point in beating a dead horse, since we would have to change his position on such tools, either through action or wallet.

I do not see Yoshi-P changing his mind anytime soon unless 99.9% of the population beg him for official meters, and even then unless lack of said meter action does not result in an exodus, I do not see it happening. Overall from what I can tell the community has asked for easier things to be changed, such as being able to mail between characters or turning chat function back on in the feast. Still nothing. They will live and die by their words and stance when it comes to official meters.

I do understand that you want "unmitigated open information official parser" it would be a lovely tool to have, and for many in the community yes we do agree that the the pros far outweigh the cons. I just do not think Yoshi-P feels the same way, in his eyes the cons outweigh the pros. The GM staff does take such issues seriously. I was reported in the past for jokingly poking fun at a friends numbers when we did a titan for their relic weapon, and someone in the group did not know we were friends I guess and I was reported. They were quick. Though I just get this feeling Yoshi-P expects a negative response and as such will do whatever he feels is necessary to limit that response even if it inconveniences the player base. In short it seems as if he would rather do everything to prevent the negative action, instead of reacting to them as they come.

That is why I mentioned before instead of asking for them we as a community should try and figure out a way we can change his position and remove the stigma he firmly holds regarding the tools. Which will be hard since for everyone positive someone will come forth with a negative, and when it comes to a person in power it only takes one case to support their claims and an infinite amount to refute them.

[MoroMurasaki]

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

Some of you talk a big game about it being better to disband a party that isn't clearing than to know who the problem is and remove them if they can't keep up. I feel like that likely isn't what you practice and even if it is why is it okay to invalidate the experience and time of 7 players for the hurt feelings of someone who has gone into content way over their head?

Everyone is quick to pity the poor, underperforming part of the playerbase - how about a little sensitivity to the people who have sunk a lot of time and effort into this game? Why are their feelings and time considered less important?

I joined a Susano clear party that had to disband recently. The description clearly asked for people who knew what they were doing to essentially get someone their clear and help farm them some totems to pick up a Susano weapon they wanted for glam. I assumed this meant we would all (this RDM aside) be remotely competent at both our jobs and the fight.

The RDM, despite being new to the fight, actually wasn't even the biggest problem. They dropped lightning on us once but so did several other party members. Even with two competent healers healing our butts off we couldn't clear this incredibly easy fight, we were running dry on MP even with consistant Mana Shifts from our newbie RDM friend.

This PF asked for people to be competent and got incompetent players by and large. If there were a parser perhaps we could have seen the issues and kicked the biggest offenders, instead that RDM had to wait two more nights for their clear and my cohealer and I had our time wasted by idiots that don't read their PF descriptions.

I don't know if anyone's experience actually matters to you guys, it sorta seems like you're trolling at this point, but there are tons of situations like this all the time that would be better resolved with an ingame parser.

[HoodRat]

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

Some of you talk a big game about it being better to disband a party that isn't clearing than to know who the problem is and remove them if they can't keep up. I feel like that likely isn't what you practice and even if it is why is it okay to invalidate the experience and time of 7 players for the hurt feelings of someone who has gone into content way over their head?

Well, there was that one poll thread where many of the participants said they would not be okay with having to do expert roulette with people of a similar skill level.

[SenorPatty]

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

Well Moro, calling people out without a parser is fine, even if it ends up being inaccurate.

But calling people out with a parser? Not only it's toxic but its harassment.

Actually you know what, the whole call out thing is harassment. Let people play the game however they want.

And you better had not silently disbanded that party. That's just rude.

[Oscura]

That is why he does not want parsers, you are basically saying people are not good enough to play with

Wow. Is it really so wrong that someone wants to play with people of similar skill level? That's why people don't want parsers? So they can deny others the ability to play with like-minded people if it means they can be carried or coddled to? That's why I've always found the argument so self-fulfilling. It's not about other people, it's just about the person themselves. It's like "think of the children," but replace children with "players who can't/won't/don't play at a savage level." It's preachy nonsense when people are ultimately only thinking about themselves.

There is nothing wrong with saying certain people aren't good enough to play with. Even outside of gaming, it is constantly proven that participating in a group of like-minded individuals or individuals with common goals or skill-sets will benefit you in the long run. Whether it be healthy coordination or encouraging you to improve. Sometimes teaming up with people who are as skilled as you are allows you to overcome hurdles when you want to improve yourself, as having multiple viewpoints or seeing another person's experience always helps. It certainly makes things more interesting for me when I have people who are of a similar skill with me, because I'm motivated to push myself further to go beyond what the group already has.

I'm actually getting tired of this rhetoric that people should be able to play how they want, when they want, and do however much DPS they please, but when someone who actually has a modicum of skill says, "I don't want to play with people worse than me," they're suddenly painted in a negative light. It's hypocritical, pure and simple. To imply that you (I say this generally, not you specifically) don't want parsers because you (again, general) don't want others excluding you for a different mindset, thus playing as they please, is just...too much.

Using someone's desire to play with others of a similar level of skill as a reason for why parsing is bad just sounds like you're shaming them for playing as they want. I'm getting tired of people supporting that attitude in the slightest.

[MoroMurasaki]

Well, there was that one poll thread where many of the participants said they would not be okay with having to do expert roulette with people of a similar skill level.

I don't understand... I love doing expert roulette with people of a similar skill level. I go out of my way to either do it with a full FC group or at least 2 friends just so I know it won't be awful. Maybe I'm missing something here?

Well Moro, calling people out without a parser is fine, even if it ends up being inaccurate.

But calling people out with a parser? Not only it's toxic but its harassment.

Actually you know what, the whole call out thing is harassment. Let people play the game however they want.

And you better had not silently disbanded that party. That's just rude.

I left that party after friending the RDM it was made for and telling them to let me know when they wanted to try again.

How toxic of me to not friend everyone there and offer to personally carry them through.

Oh wait, it's also toxic to say carry... Damn.

Maybe I just stop talking to anyone ingame for fear of offending them?

Unrelated: You both have amazing hats.

[Nedkel]

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

For me personally, its not okay if someone is obviously trolling, but i dont mind now someone doing badly, because i do not like to be called for it either. I have learned that from League of Legends when community outrage is gigantic, i also understand it doesnt matter if am i going to be mad or not, since there is nothing to be mad about at the end of the day its just a game, great part of the gamers community doesnt take it seriously so why should i? My rage will not learn anyone how to play, you will not convince them how to play properly, so why bother.
I am coming from a conclusion, if you want to have fun in the game, you need to be the part of that fun in online game. Raging and calling and kicking will only enforce this behavior further into the community, if i will kick someone for their performance, the one kicked away will do it to the someone else.

@edit
And official, available for everyone parser will just make these things worse. An ability to judge other people performance is what could push a lot of people to go bananas over the game. Just look what it is playing as a tank or a healer and being kicked out for small things, it happen to me few times already, because i was "spinning the mobs/boss" or not waiting for the buff, or the dps died because it have rushed and pulled himself.
This makes me believe for sure, there will be people who will cry around over someone dps being like 20-30% lower. I could see even a healers getting called more often if they focus on keeping a tank alive but dont do any dmg. Since checking it would be super easy, this will happen more frequently.

Some of you talk a big game about it being better to disband a party that isn't clearing than to know who the problem is and remove them if they can't keep up. I feel like that likely isn't what you practice and even if it is why is it okay to invalidate the experience and time of 7 players for the hurt feelings of someone who has gone into content way over their head?

Everyone is quick to pity the poor, underperforming part of the playerbase - how about a little sensitivity to the people who have sunk a lot of time and effort into this game? Why are their feelings and time considered less important?

Because playing badly is for the most part not a thing someone could overcome so easly. What if that one guy has weird IRL circumstances happening around him or when he never played mmorpg before or is he doing the certain duty for the first time, he doesnt control it and doesnt have an ability to just stop playing badly on a dime.
The people raging and being rude could control themselves, and they are being little brats over a game, over a PUG which an experienced player should have know he is not going to get everyone playing good in it. You may be playing with a party finder, well thats not also the best way to get things sorted, its just a different form of PUG with random people looking for a party.

I joined a Susano clear party that had to disband recently. The description clearly asked for people who knew what they were doing to essentially get someone their clear and help farm them some totems to pick up a Susano weapon they wanted for glam. I assumed this meant we would all (this RDM aside) be remotely competent at both our jobs and the fight.

The RDM, despite being new to the fight, actually wasn't even the biggest problem. They dropped lightning on us once but so did several other party members. Even with two competent healers healing our butts off we couldn't clear this incredibly easy fight, we were running dry on MP even with consistant Mana Shifts from our newbie RDM friend.

This PF asked for people to be competent and got incompetent players by and large. If there were a parser perhaps we could have seen the issues and kicked the biggest offenders, instead that RDM had to wait two more nights for their clear and my cohealer and I had our time wasted by idiots that don't read their PF descriptions.

I don't know if anyone's experience actually matters to you guys, it sorta seems like you're trolling at this point, but there are tons of situations like this all the time that would be better resolved with an ingame parser.

1. I understand people getting annoyed when they losed their ranking in the certain team based game (cs go, lol, dota), but i cant understand why over such stupid thing? People on low lvls when they need to beat a certain dungeon in order to proceed into the story has better excuse of being abusive than this, but i find them way more patient and kind then someone apparently rushing for glamour, that makes no sense.
I know the time is precious, but when someone value their own time over the progress they do, they could be called addicted to the game. They dont get anything real anyway, they still waste time for the game, and they should be aware of they dont really are entitled to do the progress all the time and there is a chance of them losing something, like in any other game, sometimes you just lose sometimes you win, you cant win all the time, lol.

2. The game is growing and inviting more newbies also those from the consoles who never played mmorpg before, % of "competent players" will decrease and there is nothing to be surprised about when you could see increased number of people who has problems with each class mechanics. Red mage is not easy class to play as far as i have been told.

Also i would like to know how many runs it takes on the hardest content to lose one, because i cant believe it is more than 50% and everyone having a problem doing it.

[Vstarstruck]

Wow. Is it really so wrong that someone wants to play with people of similar skill level? That's why people don't want parsers? So they can deny others the ability to play with like-minded people if it means they can be carried or coddled to? That's why I've always found the argument so self-fulfilling. It's notabout other people, it's just about the person themselves. It's like "think of the children," but replace children with "players who can't/won't/don't play at a savage level." It's preachy nonsense when people are ultimately only thinking about themselves.

There is nothing wrong with saying certain people aren't good enough to play with. Even outside of gaming, it is constantly proven that participating in a group of like-minded individuals or individuals with common goals or skill-sets will benefit you in the long run. Whether it be healthy coordination or encouraging you to improve. Sometimes teaming up with people who are as skilled as you are allows you to overcome hurdles when you want to improve yourself, as having multiple viewpoints or seeing another person's experience always helps. It certainly makes things more interesting for me when I have people who are of a similar skill with me, because I'm motivated to push myself further to go beyond what the group already has.

I'm actually getting tired of this rhetoric that people should be able to play how they want, when they want, and do however much DPS they please, but when someone who actually has a modicum of skill says, "I don't want to play with people worse than me," they're suddenly painted in a negative light. It's hypocritical, pure and simple. To imply that you (I say this generally, not you specifically) don't want parsers because you (again, general) don't want others excluding you for a different mindset, thus playing as they please, is just...too much.

Using someone's desire to play with others of a similar level of skill as a reason for why parsing is bad just sounds like you're shaming them for playing as they want. I'm getting tired of people supporting that attitude in the slightest.

Throws arms in the air.
I give up
are people intentionally twisting my words or they legit do not understand what I am saying?
Someone did:

Kaidea, I think she means that even if you pug, you probably pug at the highest difficulty levels where they filter out harassment because the pool of raiders that can play at that level is small anyways. You can't really evaluate the parser culture because the bulk of it is going to hit people in the middle reaches of skill, in the same way Overwatch pros and normal players have different cultures and player rankings. Generally world firsters you have to ignore in these discussions; they aren't the ones who are indicative of the general culture of the game.

It is a prospective issue, not being exposed outside your bubble, while trying to push every other situation is the same as the bubble you are in. Has nothing to do with what is wrong or right