Black Mage

[Shiroe]

making ranged an advantage is nice, but than you end up being out range of some aoe heals (or other buffs)

the blm buff will probably have some connection with enochian, like after a foul without dropping enochian (or without using transpose), eno will buff for 15% or something

+ agree with the proc tweaks mentioned by Kabooa

[Remedi]

I was well aware that my claim would've been controversial but honestly you need to keep up with for a while because I'm getting to something

, one is more dps/burst oriented, the other one is more support oriented. .

Now this is what I was getting at, of the 2 jobs in the ranged role one is more support based the other is more dps based and that is shown in their toolkit, what they might have in their role action pool is completely irrilevant to the point because as I said what makes you support of dps based is your personal toolkit the role toolkit has been made to make so that some roles have a preset of actions that they NEED.

Now I'm not bashing MCH and BRD I'm using them as an example, in my opinion one can still be a selfish dps if he has a reason to apply a dmg buff as part of their rotation and whatnot, frankly we have said many times that the problem is that selfish dps doesn't work, well I don't think that applying a debuff from which you have a gain instantly makes you a support.

I'm making a distinction between active and passive support because in my opinion even selfish could bring a passive support to the group and that's why I said that MCH could be considered selfish compared to BRD, because what they bring to the party is something that belongs to their very core as a job (not really dismantle but ALL jobs have a way to reduce incoming dmg in some way).
I understant that this is a wild ride but just give it a though

[Llugen]

snip

Really late response but I'm just going to reiterate yet again that I do not see "raw damage" ever outweighing support+damage on ANY class in this game. If the raw damage output was ridiculously high (see also: broken) then maybe, but I would much rather see utility from all classes and be accused of being "boring" than see my class locked out because it's undesirable to bring from a party damage perspective.


Again, even SAM brings something as menial as slashing down. BLM brings absolutely nothing. It's the very definition of a liability; feed your BLM and pray he's amazing/doesn't die.

[Fannah]

It's not wild rude, it's just a different way to see it. But (I'll just try to not be offensive) you really actually believe I'm selfish to give 10euros to a homeless because my neighbour gave 15euros to him. Your point of view (or vocabulary) is lacking of subtility. And it's almost like you're using mathematics in a wrong way. "One person A gives X, the other person B gives X + Y, so it's the same than A gives nothing and B gives Y". That's what I kind of hear from what you wrote ("action roles don't matter" to put it shortly).

Before people talk about action roles, before it was in the game, giving back TP and MP was part of their kit, so they have been designed for it, unlike those jobs who gained new abilities for real after the existence of Action Roles (I would understand you don't take in count new abilities coming from Action Roles which never been part of them before).
Bard got Foe's Requiem working the same way than Hypercharge and upgrades Bard's dmg too, you compare with Battle voice which is not the direct equivalent of Hypercharge and just give more bonuses.
No way I consider Requiem Foe's as a selfish skill (but maybe you do).

Using the word selfish is too extreme in this situation. None of them are selfish, and considering them as selfish when we are talking about the number 1 support and number 2 support compared to all the others is kinda an inappropriate way to speak about them.

"but just give it a though " is the only rude thing you wrote, btw. Don't worry, I read everything and think about the way you think it. It doesn't make me have to agree with you.

[Kabooa]

Again, even SAM brings something as menial as slashing down. BLM brings absolutely nothing. It's the very definition of a liability; feed your BLM and pray he's amazing/doesn't die.

There are rare times when I do get to have all the single target balances, dragon eyes, what have you and just blow everything up.

I love it.

[Shiroe]

and Sam can hog most buffs too where they can "burst" (dragon sight, mnk brotherhood, can use rdm embolden), ..blm has far less "buffs" and cant really burst either

that aside, instead of proc tweaks for mobility, chorter CD on aether and LL would be nice too

[Remedi]

It's not wild rude, it's just a different way to see it. But (I'll just try to not be offensive) you really actually believe I'm selfish to give 10euros to a homeless because my neighbour gave 15euros to him. Your point of view (or vocabulary) is lacking of subtility. And it's almost like you're using mathematics in a wrong way. "One person A gives X, the other person B gives X + Y, so it's the same than A gives nothing and B gives Y". That's what I kind of hear from what you wrote ("action roles don't matter" to put it shortly).

Before people talk about action roles, before it was in the game, giving back TP and MP was part of their kit, so they have been designed for it, unlike those jobs who gained new abilities for real after the existence of Action Roles (I would understand you don't take in count new abilities coming from Action Roles which never been part of them before).
Bard got Foe's Requiem working the same way than Hypercharge and upgrades Bard's dmg too, you compare with Battle voice which is not the direct equivalent of Hypercharge and just give more bonuses.
No way I consider Requiem Foe's as a selfish skill (but maybe you do).

Using the word selfish is too extreme in this situation. None of them are selfish, and considering them as selfish when we are talking about the number 1 support and number 2 support compared to all the others is kinda an inappropriate way to speak about them.

"but just give it a though " is the only rude thing you wrote, btw. Don't worry, I read everything and think about the way you think it. It doesn't make me have to agree with you.

The word selfish might be too much but I'm not accusing anyone I'm just showing that BLM can bring a dps buff to the raid and still be dps centric as a role that is the point.
Especially since SAM has the slash down that, while may not be the most optimal way of providing it, it's still there, has been used in a composition and it has it's own opener in the compendium

[Lina_Slayer]

We need offensive utility there is no other way around that, selfish don't work and never will in this expansion (unless you make it completely broken) and SAM is not an example of success because they are more than likely going to become us in 4.2 (a.k.a the worst dps job), SMN right now has the biggest personal damage in the game and some offensive utility and it is barely competing with the double ranged meta, imagine how much personal damage something like BLM that has 0 offensive utility and no burst phase to abuse stuff like Trick Attack would have to deal to compete with a class like MCH which has one of the strongest burst phases in the game thanks to WF and a really powerful offensive utility in the form of Hypercharge (also remember that MCH is the weakest link on the meta super comp).

Maybe in 5.0 by replacing stuff like Trick Atack, Hypercharge, AoE Balance, etc for single target buffs like Dragon Sight, those "selfish" carry dps like BLM and SAM could work but on StormBlood you either give them the SMN treatment (high damage and some albeit weaker utility when compared with the others) or condemn them to be bad for the entire expansion.

[Remedi]

I'm not saying that SAM is a success, I'm stating that they are considered a selfish job and still have a form of utility for the group even if it is a weak one.
Which makes them better than BLM because they have nothing for the group but their dmg.

I said that MCH can be considered selfish given how their toolkit is extremely dps centric and how hypercharge has a huge impact on them considering the interaction with WF.
Which means that their support abilities are passives bcause they come off something they would do normally and I argue that the same should be applied to SAM and BLM.

[HaroldSaxon]

We need offensive utility there is no other way around that, selfish don't work and never will in this expansion (unless you make it completely broken) and SAM is not an example of success because they are more than likely going to become us in 4.2 (a.k.a the worst dps job), SMN right now has the biggest personal damage in the game and some offensive utility and it is barely competing with the double ranged meta, imagine how much personal damage something like BLM that has 0 offensive utility and no burst phase to abuse stuff like Trick Attack would have to deal to compete with a class like MCH which has one of the strongest burst phases in the game thanks to WF and a really powerful offensive utility in the form of Hypercharge (also remember that MCH is the weakest link on the meta super comp).

Maybe in 5.0 by replacing stuff like Trick Atack, Hypercharge, AoE Balance, etc for single target buffs like Dragon Sight, those "selfish" carry dps like BLM and SAM could work but on StormBlood you either give them the SMN treatment (high damage and some albeit weaker utility when compared with the others) or condemn them to be bad for the entire expansion.

Really late response but I'm just going to reiterate yet again that I do not see "raw damage" ever outweighing support+damage on ANY class in this game. If the raw damage output was ridiculously high (see also: broken) then maybe, but I would much rather see utility from all classes and be accused of being "boring" than see my class locked out because it's undesirable to bring from a party damage perspective.

Again, even SAM brings something as menial as slashing down. BLM brings absolutely nothing. It's the very definition of a liability; feed your BLM and pray he's amazing/doesn't die.

To use extreme numbers, if you gave BLM 10k raw dps, you would. If you gave more single target sustained dps buffs (rather than raidwide short high potency buffs), you would. There's plenty of ways it can be done. If BLM has enough personal dps it would be considered - right now it isn't even close to providing that. Checkout Blackcat's Raid DPS app if you want more information.

As an FYI, SMN doesn't always have the biggest single target personal damage. Its dependent on the fight/kill time and group composition. Also its DPS is currently overestimated due to a bug with Dot Damage in the statistics site (as well as Ruin 4 exploiters).