Tank dps harrasment

[Hierro]

I will concede that tanks staying in tank stance for the duration of large pulls is a fair point, but you know why tanks should be expected to at least TRY to DPS at least for bosses? Because it's incredibly easy. There's simply no excuse. In your average roulette/24-man/8-man, there is no such thing as a boss that will execute you instantly for not having tank stance up. Neither will your healer experience a sudden, crushing, overwhelming burden of healing 20% more incoming damage. Even then, defensive cooldowns exist for the purpose of mitigating more than enough damage. So, why not press the button that takes off the damage penalty? Is it laziness or ignorance? In either case, both are undesirable, and by extension, make the tank undesirable.

[Xerek]

Is it laziness or ignorance? In either case, both are undesirable, and by extension, make the tank undesirable.

And this right here is the problem. The idea that it can only be one of those two things.

I'm trying to phrase this carefully. I think people should contribute what they can. I am not advocating that it's fine for a tank to just sit in tank stance and healer just heal, people do the bare minimum if they can do more. There's the crux, if they can do more. People should try and push themselves, I will fully agree as well. But what if, honestly, that is the best they can do? What if they can only play an hour a day, and haven't ground roulettes to tears? What if they struggle to keep up, not through laziness, but rather circumstance? Should we say, "Yeah, you kept aggro the whole way, but if you can't handle dropping into a DPS stance and adding some damage, you should GTFO!"? Or, "Yeah, nobody died, but if you can't handle adding a bit of DPS go find another game!"? Maybe, "I don't care if you're in your 60's and your fingers are arthritic, your DPS is sh!t! Give up and take up needlepoint, grandma!"? I know a number of people who struggle, but they enjoy the game because they can still clear casual content. I'm helping them where I can. I nudge, maybe convince a friend to let me increase the size of a pull. But these are people trying their hardest, they're just not as good at the game as some others. Are you saying these people, who enjoy FF XIV, and can clear casual content without overstressing the party, should give up and cancel their subs, just so you can shave a few minutes off your dungeon run? If you said no, then you have to realize one thing...you'll never know.

In a PUG run, if you spot a tank locked in tank stance, or healer not DPSing, you have absolutely no idea if they are being lazy, or if this is indeed the best they can do. The part of this thread that makes me scream are lines like "Anyone can tank a boss in DPS stance!" or "Anyone can weave DPS in with healing!", normally followed by..."...and if they don't, they're being lazy!" I can tell you outright, no. Anyone is one hell of a generalization. Most people, maybe. But the mindset that every single FF XIV player out there can reach that level of expertise if they just have enough time and practice is ludicrous. And before it's said, no. In most cases, people have tried other roles. You can't just tell a tank that stays in tank stance to find another job. In most cases, they have, and nothing was better then what they're on.

Are the lazy people out there? Of course. And it drives me crazy. I get frustrated when I see someone's phoning it in, so long as it's clear that's what they're doing. And I will say something. A tank handles things well with downtime? I'll suggest bigger pulls. Someone spamming one attack/combo, I'll suggest mixing it up. People don't get a free pass for just doing the minimum. But if what they are doing is legitimately their best, and it is enough to hold all the aggro or keep everyone healed and they still manage the clear, should they be harassed? Told to "get gud!"? Kicked? And if not, tell me...how do you know when someone is doing their best and just struggling, or simply doing as little as possible on autopilot?

[akaneakki]

"Anyone can tank a boss in DPS stance!" or "Anyone can weave DPS in with healing!", normally followed by..."...and if they don't, they're being lazy!

Shinryu is an example: Healers I've met who don't dps doesn't heal tank fast enough or the group, yet they didn't cast anything else but we tanks die. The irony they don't dps. Tanks who doesn't go in dps stance while tanking doesn't bother me much, but what bothers me is they spam aggro when it's truely not needed. Yes everyone CAN tank without tank stance and healers can dps. It doesnt matter if its 800 to 1k or even 500, they tried and thats okay. Once they get more used to the fight, they probably squeeze in more. Why is that for example the WHM I had in shinryu earlier did 1.6k dps and SCH did 118 yet the whm healed MORE than the SCH? Explain.

[Xerek]

Shinryu is an example: Healers I've met who don't dps doesn't heal tank fast enough or the group, yet they didn't cast anything else but we tanks die. The irony they don't dps. Tanks who doesn't go in dps stance while tanking doesn't bother me much, but what bothers me is they spam aggro when it's truely not needed. Yes everyone CAN tank without tank stance and healers can dps. It doesnt matter if its 800 to 1k or even 500, they tried and thats okay. Once they get more used to the fight, they probably squeeze in more. Why is that for example the WHM I had in shinryu earlier did 1.6k dps and SCH did 118 yet the whm healed MORE than the SCH? Explain.

Shinryu normal or EX? My post specifically mentioned casual content. That's excluding EX/Savage. Did you fully read my post? I specifically mentioned so long as everyone lived, and the tanks held all the mobs. Yet, you make an example where people die. Your reply addresses nothing in my post. Please reread my post, I think you misread some or all of it.

Lol "expertise." You make it sound as if this is some sort of complex task. We're not talking 1%u0025 min-maxing here, there is a difference. Here's the steps to tank without tank stance.

1. Pull the boss and whack it.
2. Press the button for tank stance.
3. Use the same abilities you would normally use.
Congratulations, you are now tanking without tank stance.

If your brain somehow can't handle pressing one more button, once in a fight, (and somehow I highly doubt that) then just find another hobby. Please stop pretending everyone's this dumb and teach basic accountability.

Well, in this case it seems the answer to...

But what if, honestly, that is the best they can do? What if they can only play an hour a day, and haven't ground roulettes to tears? What if they struggle to keep up, not through laziness, but rather circumstance? Should we say, "Yeah, you kept aggro the whole way, but if you can't handle dropping into a DPS stance and adding some damage, you should GTFO!"? Or, "Yeah, nobody died, but if you can't handle adding a bit of DPS go find another game!"? Maybe, "I don't care if you're in your 60's and your fingers are arthritic, your DPS is sh!t! Give up and take up needlepoint, grandma!"?

...is "Yes, absolutely!" >.<

I never said, as you put it, "everyone's this dumb". I said multiple times in fact that there are some people slacking, phoning it in, and I don't support that in the least. It looks to me like you just skimmed my post before firing off a reply, rather then actually reading through it properly.

[Hierro]

how do you know when someone is doing their best and just struggling, or simply doing as little as possible on autopilot?

What about poor ol' grandpa with the aching hands? What about poor ol' timmy with cerebral palsy and their special headpiece? Come on. They don't make a quarter of bad tanks, or even a fraction of that. The chances that these people have a legitimate excuse to play poorly is abysmal. Besides, did I outline a complex process to DPS tanking? Seriously, all I outlined was turning on sword oath/deliverance/turning off grit. Just like that, your low-dps tank suddenly becomes a mediocre dps tank. Nowhere did I outline an increase to whatever APM these bad tanks have. If a shield oath pld wishes to spam their RoH combo all day, they can do so in sword oath just the same.

A SINGLE BUTTON PRESS DURING CASUAL BOSS ENCOUNTERS is all I ask for. Is that too much? Is it not lazy or ignorant to not do a button press?

[Xerek]

What about poor ol' grandpa with the aching hands? What about poor ol' timmy with cerebral palsy and their special headpiece? Come on. They don't make a quarter of bad tanks, or even a fraction of that. The chances that these people have a legitimate excuse to play poorly is abysmal. Besides, did I outline a complex process to DPS tanking? Seriously, all I outlined was turning on sword oath/deliverance/turning off grit. Just like that, your low-dps tank suddenly becomes a mediocre dps tank. Nowhere did I outline an increase to whatever APM these bad tanks have. If a shield oath pld wishes to spam their RoH combo all day, they can do so in sword oath just the same.

A SINGLE BUTTON PRESS DURING CASUAL BOSS ENCOUNTERS is all I ask for. Is that too much? Is it not lazy or ignorant to not do a button press?

Or it's possible I drew every example directly from people I know, making your "abyssmal" odds claim seem a lot less plausible.

As for the one button, no. The flaw there is the claim they can still play the exact same. If said tank is stressed and struggling to hold aggro prior to the boss, I am fairly certain doing the exact same thing, pressing the exact same buttons in the exact same intervals would result in them losing aggro. You can suggest they play the same, popping cooldowns as needed and such, but that is not the same as clicking a button and doing things the exact same ways. If the tank is already stressed tanking the boss in shield stance, don't you think changing to DPS stance would make that apprehension all the worse? There is a measure of adaptation required. You may think such a thing easy enough, and for many players you'd be right. But not for all.

[Dualgunner]

Or it's possible I drew every example directly from people I know, making your "abyssmal" odds claim seem a lot less plausible.

So...anecdote.

[demonette]

In a PUG run, if you spot a tank locked in tank stance, or healer not DPSing, you have absolutely no idea if they are being lazy, or if this is indeed the best they can do. The part of this thread that makes me scream are lines like "Anyone can tank a boss in DPS stance!" or "Anyone can weave DPS in with healing!", normally followed by..."...and if they don't, they're being lazy!" I can tell you outright, no. Anyone is one hell of a generalization. Most people, maybe. But the mindset that every single FF XIV player out there can reach that level of expertise

Lol "expertise." You make it sound as if this is some sort of complex task. We're not talking 1%u0025 min-maxing here, there is a difference. Here's the steps to tank without tank stance.

1. Pull the boss and whack it.
2. Press the button for tank stance.
3. Use the same abilities you would normally use.
Congratulations, you are now tanking without tank stance.

If your brain somehow can't handle pressing one more button, once in a fight, (and somehow I highly doubt that) then just find another hobby. Please stop pretending everyone's this dumb and teach basic accountability.

[KaivaC]

The way threads like these split into multiple topics with multiple arguments over several issues makes me want to make a debate thread lol. At least once a month, we have these lively debates.

[KalinOrthos]

How about we just let other players play how they want to unless they are actively impeding your experience? Live and let live? And no, tanks staying in tank stance in an expert dungeon is not an active impediment. If anything, it's a slight delay in how fast you down a boss. I'm talking healers Rescuing you into fire, dead players not acceptibg raises, players deliberately missing mechanics, etc.