Tank dps harrasment

[DeaconMoore]

Main issue is tank stance is pretty worthless /redundant nowadays

Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group. Dps can't afford not to watch their threat, healers end up spending more time healing you than dpsing themselves, and if things go south and you mess up not going back into tank stance in time thx to gcd or whatever for a tank buster, or you along with the dps eat some unavoidable aoe dmg, dps are more likely to die if the healer (s) are busy trying to keep you alive as a result.

I like seeing big numbers next to my name as much as anyone else but chasing big dps numbers isn't the tanks job. That's just icing on the cake for them.

[Lilseph]

Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group.

I play healer and this is not true in Expert. It doesn't put any pressure and I can DPS just fine. A tank that knows how to swap stances will have their aggro sorted out. Ultimately, DPS jobs have aggro managing skills.

Yes, accidents can happen, but it's not as bad as you make it look. Some people might make mistakes but some of them are also learning, which implies that they will f*** up at some point.

[Mavrias]

Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group. Dps can't afford not to watch their threat, healers end up spending more time healing you than dpsing themselves, and if things go south and you mess up not going back into tank stance in time thx to gcd or whatever for a tank buster, or you along with the dps eat some unavoidable aoe dmg, dps are more likely to die if the healer (s) are busy trying to keep you alive as a result.

You put next to no extra pressure on the group if you know what you're doing. Smart cooldown usage, knowing when busters or heavy hits are coming, self healing, all make you functionally no different than a tank in tank stance to your healers.

DPS should be appropriately managing their threat in the first place (threat drops, diversion) but you should also know when you need to throw in an extra hate combo or swap back into stance to regain more of a hate lead.

[Avatre]

but you should also know when you need to throw in an extra hate combo or swap back into stance to regain more of a hate lead.

Which, lets face it, quite a few tanks do NOT know how to do it. And they are also the ones that end up dropping the tank stance because "some other tank-main told me that tank stance isn't needed". I've lost count the number of times, while using Diversion/Lucid/whatever other agro dump I have, that I've stolen hate from a tank because "muh deeps"

[HoodRat]

Which, lets face it, quite a few tanks do NOT know how to do it. And they are also the ones that end up dropping the tank stance because "some other tank-main told me that tank stance isn't needed". I've lost count the number of times, while using Diversion/Lucid/whatever other agro dump I have, that I've stolen hate from a tank because "muh deeps"

And I've lost count the number of times I outdps actual dps players as a tank. If they're not gonna contribute to dps, someone has to. :^)

[Avatre]

And I've lost count the number of times I outdps actual dps players as a tank. If they're not gonna contribute to dps, someone has to. :^)

I've had that happen to, and without losing agro. BUT, I said that quite a few tanks cannot keep agro, and deal lots of DPS. I'm not saying that nobody should be staying in tank stance 100% of the time(I don't, if I have a good feel for the party, and know I can drop it, I will), but until people actually know the class they are in there as(which is where you out DPS those DPS - either by them not knowing their class, or you being way overgeared compared to them) they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

[HoodRat]

I've had that happen to, and without losing agro. BUT, I said that quite a few tanks cannot keep agro, and deal lots of DPS. I'm not saying that nobody should be staying in tank stance 100% of the time(I don't, if I have a good feel for the party, and know I can drop it, I will), but until people actually know the class they are in there as(which is where you out DPS those DPS - either by them not knowing their class, or you being way overgeared compared to them) they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

Oh, but they don't have to know their class. Just read through all the comments, people seem to think it's better to deny access to data which would cause other people to exclude them from farm parties instead of improving themselves so they won't be excluded from said farm parties in the first place. Why learn your class when you can just ignore/report people who say you're underperforming? :^)

And neither of you read I was responding to the guy saying the stance is effectively worthless.

If you know what you're doing, it is effectively worthless.

[Lodinn]

{SNIP} they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

I keep hearing that opinion and it's really dangerous. People keep going on about healer dps not because healers have dps abilities but because they have overly much healing potential for pretty much 100% content in this game, double so in dungeons (there was a thread in OF where some guy did a healbot dungeon run on purpose and estimated his active time at 17% or so. Don't really want to go into much detail here, it's off-topic anyway).
Similar thing applies to tanks. They have 3 jobs - mitigation (works much like dps cooldowns rotation-wise but are tank cooldowns instead), keeping aggro and positioning the boss/mobs. Sadly, the vast majority of tanks in ffxiv ignores that last responsibility altogether, moreover, it's virtually not applicable to some bosses, shunryu included.
Balancing enmity is literally a tanks' mechanic. Sitting in tank stance all the time alone would satisfy that job being done. Formally, at least. But you can't say tanks are *designed* to be in tank stance all the time. If you are not getting carried by much more geared dps who, by design, have access to aggro management tools, then just sitting in tank stance and hitting targets according to their count (i.e. switching between singletarget and aoe) would provide you with all the aggro you need. That way, aggro would be a redundant mechanic. Tanks *are* designed with stance dancing in mind, and since HW at very least it's blatantly obvious from their ability set.

Now I'm gonna focus on Shinryu and yes, it will be cherry picking (simply because it's hard to give any comment about that claim regarding dungeons which is even hard to believe).
So Shinryu it is... I can see tank being in tank stance all the time getting the boot because...
1) The other tank is doing his job and you make his life MUCH harder by interfering with aggro. Hello to all the offtank BB spammers back in HW.
2) DPS would have harder time as well, by being inefficient you rob group of about 2k dps which is around 10% of its total dps output, give or take. PERMANENT. POST-BUFF PRE-NERF. AOE. BALANCE.
As a team, everyone would have to try really really really hard to make up for this. If the group is already barely afloat with some 16k raid dps, you are a part of a problem and possibly even main issue.
People keep saying "nuuuuu but raid content is being designed around dps getting gud and tanks and heals basically semi-botting" but if you just go to fflogs and find the longest kill ever and see how much raid dps they were doing and then find tanks being at the bare bottom in terms of dps and subtract that... Let's see. About 23890 raid dps to beat enrage, around 1800 dps PLD (Hiro Nine) who didn't die and get hit by mechanics... That leaves dps at about 5k EACH to beat the enrage. That's less than top 1% of players. If that's not carrying I don't know what is. Content is NOT designed around tanks sitting in tank stance day and night and healers not dpsing at all.
And Shinryu is apparently raid content so being efficient mentality should be a thing there.
3) Healers. For a healer, tank in tank stance is not helping that much but not hurting, either. It's possible, however, to be called out on playing the class wrong because they were unhappy about something else. Like, if you take a lot of damage, healer starts looking at you and he doesn't know about tank cooldown rotation but he knows for sure you *shouldn't* be in tank stance so much... You might be called out on that.

Unrelated: I try tanking myself for the first time in the game pretty much and i find myself in grit quite often. I do drop it on bosses but 4.0 made it hard to aoe trash without some extra mana generation, and mitigation ain't that amazing, either. But that's just DRK things and are not raid-related. However, if you are playing this class as your main... People would expect you to know it bit better.

[Tubben]

Content is NOT designed around tanks sitting in tank stance day and night and healers not dpsing at all.

It's not that i dont agree with you, i would die from boredom without dps'ing as an healer, and the ABC Rule should be followed if possible but :

Just to make one thing clear. Thats just not true. Content IS designed without Healer DPS in mind.

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Want a source?

[akaneakki]

Which, lets face it, quite a few tanks do NOT know how to do it. And they are also the ones that end up dropping the tank stance because "some other tank-main told me that tank stance isn't needed". I've lost count the number of times, while using Diversion/Lucid/whatever other agro dump I have, that I've stolen hate from a tank because "muh deeps"

I will say this. If a tank dies to auto attack, the healer is bad. If a healer spends 60% of the time not clicking buttons, they are bad. If a tank knows how to push his limit both keeping aggro, doing damage while rotating cds for tank buster hes good. If a tank spams aggro all day even when hes tank stance, hes not great, hes not good either, hes just okay. Why do you want to spam aggro combo when its already 90% above everyone else? So you can ''do your job''? Aggro is already far ahead, why are you going to prove you can keep aggro even more when it's not really needed? Also in roulettes well expert, I do keep my tank stance up for trash so healer can go hard on dps, while on PLD i even clemency myself so the whm can spam more holy, that way trash dies faster. Don't give me the ''only save 2 min'', not really. Ive done drowning city of skalla 35 min vs 18 min, so its like half of the time more with a bad group. Yes I know its just an expert, but it's about time really. People have work, other hobbies to do, family etc, saving that 15 min everyday will give you a lot more time than you think it will.