Tank dps harrasment

[DeaconMoore]

You put next to no extra pressure on the group if you know what you're doing. Smart cooldown usage, knowing when busters or heavy hits are coming, self healing, all make you functionally no different than a tank in tank stance to your healers.

DPS should be appropriately managing their threat in the first place (threat drops, diversion) but you should also know when you need to throw in an extra hate combo or swap back into stance to regain more of a hate lead.

I play healer and this is not true in Expert. It doesn't put any pressure and I can DPS just fine. A tank that knows how to swap stances will have their aggro sorted out. Ultimately, DPS jobs have aggro managing skills.

Yes, accidents can happen, but it's not as bad as you make it look. Some people might make mistakes but some of them are also learning, which implies that they will f*** up at some point.

And neither of you read I was responding to the guy saying the stance is effectively worthless. It's the details you have to keep track of when tanking a smooth run for the group and your missing that point illustrates peoples tendency to miss the finer points and tunnel.

Yes, DPS should watch their aggro, DPS never watches their aggro 100% of the time. And I wasn't saying you shouldn't ever leave tank stance to get some extra DPS, I was saying it's not the tanks primary job to do that and that they should be mindful of what is going on around them when they do.

And sorry but yes, a tanks health bar suddenly dropping faster, with their threat lead dropping does put extra pressure on the group. How much is subjective to the situation but it's their nonetheless.

[HoodRat]

I've had that happen to, and without losing agro. BUT, I said that quite a few tanks cannot keep agro, and deal lots of DPS. I'm not saying that nobody should be staying in tank stance 100% of the time(I don't, if I have a good feel for the party, and know I can drop it, I will), but until people actually know the class they are in there as(which is where you out DPS those DPS - either by them not knowing their class, or you being way overgeared compared to them) they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

Oh, but they don't have to know their class. Just read through all the comments, people seem to think it's better to deny access to data which would cause other people to exclude them from farm parties instead of improving themselves so they won't be excluded from said farm parties in the first place. Why learn your class when you can just ignore/report people who say you're underperforming? :^)

And neither of you read I was responding to the guy saying the stance is effectively worthless.

If you know what you're doing, it is effectively worthless.

[Doki]

I'll solo hunt mobs in tank stance and get full credit so whatever!

[Arkturius]

I'll solo hunt mobs in tank stance and get full credit so whatever!

threads about people crying over pretty much normal stuff/nothing make me happy =D

[Arkturius]

Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group. Dps can't afford not to watch their threat, healers end up spending more time healing you than dpsing themselves, and if things go south and you mess up not going back into tank stance in time thx to gcd
I like seeing big numbers next to my name as much as anyone else but chasing big dps numbers isn't the tanks job. That's just icing on the cake for them.

you put 0 pressure on the rest of the group outside of an initial hate combo in stance you can literally drop stance and just straight dps or aoe even in dungeons (initial pull grab all mobs in tank stance then do an aoe rotation for emnity then drop stance and go ham it is literally as easy as it is for kids to eat mud/glue this isn't even a discussion)

[HoodRat]

it is literally as easy as it is for kids to eat mud/glue this isn't even a discussion)

On that note, when I first started raiding, I would sit in tank stance when I had aggro. After I felt more comfortable, I would just go into dps stance without warning, and after the clear ask the healers if they noticed a difference...most of the time they didn't. And actually, I joined a different group a couple months ago. I had to relearn basically every fight because I switched to war and in my previous group we had a pld who just had to mt every moment possible. Even when I didn't know exactly what I was doing, I would try to be in dps stance as long as possible, and I would always feel bad about it because I thought that I was putting extra stress on the healers...but then I found out that even then my healers were doing about 2k dps each.

[akaneakki]

Which, lets face it, quite a few tanks do NOT know how to do it. And they are also the ones that end up dropping the tank stance because "some other tank-main told me that tank stance isn't needed". I've lost count the number of times, while using Diversion/Lucid/whatever other agro dump I have, that I've stolen hate from a tank because "muh deeps"

I will say this. If a tank dies to auto attack, the healer is bad. If a healer spends 60% of the time not clicking buttons, they are bad. If a tank knows how to push his limit both keeping aggro, doing damage while rotating cds for tank buster hes good. If a tank spams aggro all day even when hes tank stance, hes not great, hes not good either, hes just okay. Why do you want to spam aggro combo when its already 90% above everyone else? So you can ''do your job''? Aggro is already far ahead, why are you going to prove you can keep aggro even more when it's not really needed? Also in roulettes well expert, I do keep my tank stance up for trash so healer can go hard on dps, while on PLD i even clemency myself so the whm can spam more holy, that way trash dies faster. Don't give me the ''only save 2 min'', not really. Ive done drowning city of skalla 35 min vs 18 min, so its like half of the time more with a bad group. Yes I know its just an expert, but it's about time really. People have work, other hobbies to do, family etc, saving that 15 min everyday will give you a lot more time than you think it will.

[KaldeaSahaline]

This has been an incredibly enjoyable read. Rather than multi-quote every single ignorant person I'll just echo some highlights.

1) To ANYONE who thinks FFLogs has no context and is merely just numbers. You are 100% wrong. It tracks everything that happens in the fight. It knows how much you're in tank stance, it knows how much you were afk not casting, and it knows how you died, and what led up to it (be it your fault, or a healing issue. It knows that you're not using oGCD's well or lining up buffs at good times. It has tons of context, what it doesn't have is patience for people who make excuses or lie because the data is there for all to see.

2) Hiding your logs is not a good thing. Logs are a lot like credit in that no credit is infinitely worse than bad credit. I have yet to encounter a single person who hides their logs who wasn't bad at the game. Not a single one. If you care about doing content where you will be screened then improve your gameplay. If you don't care, then what a website says about you doesn't matter because you only do participation trophy content anyway.

3) I 100% believe that the OP is not telling us the whole story about her repeatedly being kicked in participation trophy content. I really shouldn't have to explain my reasons on that one. You know what they say, it may not be the community if you're the common denominator.

I would have liked FFLogs to have the ability to track ilvl like warcraftlogs does to give a little additional context, but alas it does not.

[Kaethra]

3) I 100% believe that the OP is not telling us the whole story about her repeatedly being kicked in participation trophy content.

You know, I've seen bad stories like this one pop up in the past, yet never experience those issues or see them happen. And it does make you wonder, especially when they claim to being kicked from hunt mark groups. I've never heard of anyone giving a damn about DPS people pull on those, and thats for DPS classes, much less healers or tanks.

As for farming groups, those are usually premades. There's no harassment there if you're kicked for not meeting expectations. Noone has a duty to form a group with you. Premade groups can kick for any reason or no reason at all. And if that's in the duty finder... well it takes more than one person to vote kick. It takes at least four. One thing I've always said, if you're being vote kicked by half the group, why would you want to be with a group that doesn't want to be with you? Reason is irrelevant, why get defiant and demand them to change their minds?

I mean lets get ridiculous here. Lets say you joined a group and the 7 of them are bunny hopping during the fight and tell you to do the same. Its dumb, it doesn't help (probably hurts the chances) with the content, and its utterly ridiculous. If you don't wish to conform to that, why should you even try to stay? There's some dumb stuff people do out there. And sometimes they have even dumber requirements. So why bother trying to force them to let you stay? Let them be ridiculous. I've always said players ought to have the groups they want to be in. That includes ones we sometimes don't agree with.

[Xerek]

This is spiraling off in multiple directions, and people are getting the different threads tangled together, making more of a mess of things.

I think the primary thing to look at is, there is two types of content in the game, casual and raid tier. There is a difference between them, and people advocating something for one of the two is not always advocating the same for both. Not everyone is being specific. For raid content, yes, optimize. People should be pushing to improve, and be held accountable for their performance. Raids are significantly harder then casual content, and worse, carry enrage timers. DPS matter, from all directions, regardless of role. This is one subject of debate, and primarily where the discussion of FFLogs comes in. There is a certain threshold everyone has to reach. Falling short puts a strain on the others, but at the same time the more you improve, the more strain you take off the others. FFLogs works wonders as a tool of self-improvement. The point of debate for it in this thread is it's use in judging others, with people polarizing, arguing whether or not it's an appropriate tool to properly access and discriminate people. This is one thing being argued.

The second is casual content. For many people expectations are lower for people in casual content given it is labelled, well, casual. And here is where the second point of contention comes in. There is an ongoing debate as to what expectations are realistic. Some people are upset if players don't adopt a raider mentality to casual content, complaining that casual players need to "git gud" or be kicked. The argument being these lesser being are slowing down their runs. This is where you heard stories of tanks in casual content being yelled at for staying in their tank stance the whole raid, and is the crux of the whole "healers should/n't DPS" train wreck going on. The opposing view is, this is casual content. Not everyone is a raider. Not everyone has the time or skill to hone their class to a razor's edge. As such, people should do what they're comfortable with and so long as they at least accomplish their primary role, it's all good. Maybe that means a tank stays in tank stance the whole way, or a healer doesn't DPS. It's casual content, people should approach it as such as stop putting such high pressure and demands on people in casual content.

One thread has spawned two different topics, each their own flashpoint. When responding, and equally importantly when reading responses, please keep this is mind and be sure you know and are clear if a particular reply is directed to just one, or both of them. Arguing that a tank that stays in tank stance the entire fight is slacking and should be kicked takes on two different contexts depending on whether it was referencing casual or raid content. And I, personally, have two vastly different opinions to it reliant on context.

For the record, I think FFLogs is a great tool for self-improvement. As for excluding people, I still maintain that a quick glance might not paint a perfect picture, going simply by color likely doesn't. But it can be helpful if you take the time to really dig in and/or watch. However, if you have time to do that, why not just bring the person along for a test run? It would take the same amount of time and give you not only a direct look at them, also a look at how they perform specifically with your people. So I will completely endorse it for self-improvement, but I'm not completely sold on it being an arbiter for others.

As for point two. Casual content is casual. If you PUG, you aren't always going to pull raiders. Some of them will be casual. Perhaps they're not that good, perhaps they don't have the mindset to perfectly execute their combos, or the mental tenacity to squeeze out every second of efficiency. Maybe they're older, and arthritic. Maybe they're slow learners. Maybe they're novices. Maybe they need to stay in tank stance to hold aggro, maybe they can't think/react fast enough to weave DPS into their heals. They're casual players in casual content. Get over it. You want your fifteen minute runs, form a static. Queue as a full party with fellow raiders. And if the run hits any hiccups you can yell at each other. But your attitude that casuals somehow have to become raid-tier players in casual content or they're wasting your time is arrogant and unrealistic. FF XIV has content for casual players and raiders. There is a place for both. If you won't tolerate the mindset of a casual in your raiding, casual players shouldn't have to tolerate your raider mindset in casual play.