Tank dps harrasment

[Avatre]

And I've lost count the number of times I outdps actual dps players as a tank. If they're not gonna contribute to dps, someone has to. :^)

I've had that happen to, and without losing agro. BUT, I said that quite a few tanks cannot keep agro, and deal lots of DPS. I'm not saying that nobody should be staying in tank stance 100% of the time(I don't, if I have a good feel for the party, and know I can drop it, I will), but until people actually know the class they are in there as(which is where you out DPS those DPS - either by them not knowing their class, or you being way overgeared compared to them) they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

[HoodRat]

I've had that happen to, and without losing agro. BUT, I said that quite a few tanks cannot keep agro, and deal lots of DPS. I'm not saying that nobody should be staying in tank stance 100% of the time(I don't, if I have a good feel for the party, and know I can drop it, I will), but until people actually know the class they are in there as(which is where you out DPS those DPS - either by them not knowing their class, or you being way overgeared compared to them) they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

Oh, but they don't have to know their class. Just read through all the comments, people seem to think it's better to deny access to data which would cause other people to exclude them from farm parties instead of improving themselves so they won't be excluded from said farm parties in the first place. Why learn your class when you can just ignore/report people who say you're underperforming? :^)

And neither of you read I was responding to the guy saying the stance is effectively worthless.

If you know what you're doing, it is effectively worthless.

[Lodinn]

{SNIP} they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

I keep hearing that opinion and it's really dangerous. People keep going on about healer dps not because healers have dps abilities but because they have overly much healing potential for pretty much 100% content in this game, double so in dungeons (there was a thread in OF where some guy did a healbot dungeon run on purpose and estimated his active time at 17% or so. Don't really want to go into much detail here, it's off-topic anyway).
Similar thing applies to tanks. They have 3 jobs - mitigation (works much like dps cooldowns rotation-wise but are tank cooldowns instead), keeping aggro and positioning the boss/mobs. Sadly, the vast majority of tanks in ffxiv ignores that last responsibility altogether, moreover, it's virtually not applicable to some bosses, shunryu included.
Balancing enmity is literally a tanks' mechanic. Sitting in tank stance all the time alone would satisfy that job being done. Formally, at least. But you can't say tanks are *designed* to be in tank stance all the time. If you are not getting carried by much more geared dps who, by design, have access to aggro management tools, then just sitting in tank stance and hitting targets according to their count (i.e. switching between singletarget and aoe) would provide you with all the aggro you need. That way, aggro would be a redundant mechanic. Tanks *are* designed with stance dancing in mind, and since HW at very least it's blatantly obvious from their ability set.

Now I'm gonna focus on Shinryu and yes, it will be cherry picking (simply because it's hard to give any comment about that claim regarding dungeons which is even hard to believe).
So Shinryu it is... I can see tank being in tank stance all the time getting the boot because...
1) The other tank is doing his job and you make his life MUCH harder by interfering with aggro. Hello to all the offtank BB spammers back in HW.
2) DPS would have harder time as well, by being inefficient you rob group of about 2k dps which is around 10% of its total dps output, give or take. PERMANENT. POST-BUFF PRE-NERF. AOE. BALANCE.
As a team, everyone would have to try really really really hard to make up for this. If the group is already barely afloat with some 16k raid dps, you are a part of a problem and possibly even main issue.
People keep saying "nuuuuu but raid content is being designed around dps getting gud and tanks and heals basically semi-botting" but if you just go to fflogs and find the longest kill ever and see how much raid dps they were doing and then find tanks being at the bare bottom in terms of dps and subtract that... Let's see. About 23890 raid dps to beat enrage, around 1800 dps PLD (Hiro Nine) who didn't die and get hit by mechanics... That leaves dps at about 5k EACH to beat the enrage. That's less than top 1% of players. If that's not carrying I don't know what is. Content is NOT designed around tanks sitting in tank stance day and night and healers not dpsing at all.
And Shinryu is apparently raid content so being efficient mentality should be a thing there.
3) Healers. For a healer, tank in tank stance is not helping that much but not hurting, either. It's possible, however, to be called out on playing the class wrong because they were unhappy about something else. Like, if you take a lot of damage, healer starts looking at you and he doesn't know about tank cooldown rotation but he knows for sure you *shouldn't* be in tank stance so much... You might be called out on that.

Unrelated: I try tanking myself for the first time in the game pretty much and i find myself in grit quite often. I do drop it on bosses but 4.0 made it hard to aoe trash without some extra mana generation, and mitigation ain't that amazing, either. But that's just DRK things and are not raid-related. However, if you are playing this class as your main... People would expect you to know it bit better.

[Tubben]

Content is NOT designed around tanks sitting in tank stance day and night and healers not dpsing at all.

It's not that i dont agree with you, i would die from boredom without dps'ing as an healer, and the ABC Rule should be followed if possible but :

Just to make one thing clear. Thats just not true. Content IS designed without Healer DPS in mind.

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Want a source?

[Taika]

Just to make one thing clear. Thats just not true. Content IS designed without Healer DPS in mind.

Want a source?

Don't take that out of the context. Content is only designed without the healer DPS in mind if the group is above the item level available to them when the content is released ("assumed item level" in that quote) and both DDs and tanks are pulling at least 85-90% of their calculated optimal DPS (and I'm fairly certain that calculated optimal DPS is somewhat far from a human player's reach).

Reducing this to "fights are designed to be beaten without healer DPS" is, even if theoretically true in a sense, completely misleading. In reality, if you really leave the group DPS as the DPS and tank players' responsibility, in many fights this means expecting them to be amongst the top 10% of all the players in the whole world, while at the same time you're allowing your healers to be significantly less active and perform in a way lower level. I don't see a reasonable argument for how this kind of distribution of responsibilities could be justified.

For example, OS4 requires a bit more than 23K DPS without limit break. If we assume the healers do 0 DPS and tanks do 5k total, that leaves 4.5k for each DD. That would currently put a RDM or BRD in top 11% of all the RDM/BRD players in the world, and even a DRG in top 21%. And this is now, when we're at item level 340 (with i345 weapons), when the content has been released when we were 20 item levels lower - so when the content was just released it would have required much more from the DDs.

This is one of the reasons why FFlogs is a great tool: if there's a healer or tank player who's thinking that it's not their responsibility to take part in the group DPS effort, they can check the fight's DPS requirements and then see what they're asking from their DDs in terms of performance if they refuse to participate - and at the same time it tells them the potential their job could bring in the group if they would be willing to give that effort.

[KaldeaSahaline]

The point of debate for it in this thread is it's use in judging others, with people polarizing, arguing whether or not it's an appropriate tool to properly access and discriminate people. This is one thing being argued.

There is an ongoing debate as to what expectations are realistic. Some people are upset if players don't adopt a raider mentality to casual content, complaining that casual players need to "git gud" or be kicked.

To your first point. There is nothing wrong with screening people who are joining your parties for whatever content you want to do. If it wasn't via fflogs, it'd be by some other metric. Using it in MATCHED content is a bit silly though.

To your second point - you are misunderstanding. We want to see others get good for sure, but that's not what we're upset about. We're upset about the DPS with full TP who is simply doing 1-2-3 despite there being 7 mobs and doing 1k less DPS than the tank despite equal ilvl. We're upset that the Healer has 11% active uptime and 36 DPS over an entire 22 minute dungeon.

I could go on if you need me too, but the point I'm trying to convey is that it's not about skill. It's about effort. If you have no desire to contribute equal effort (please note: effort =/= skill) then you are being disrespectful.

It's not that black and white, there is plenty of middle ground.

Thankfully someone else gets it. See above.

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

No it doesn't. Doing the bare minimum is not putting in effort or doing your job well. In fact, it's quite literally the opposite.

I find that tank play is greatly taken for granted in this game. A tank who is holding agro is doing a good job, because when they hold agro it makes things easier for everyone else. DO NOT take that for playing optimally. That is not what I mean.

Don't take a tank holding aggro as doing a good job, it's doing the bare minimum.

I and others who play tank jobs as intended aren't quite as interested in our damage as in our ability to survive while doing what damage we can within our intended role. That doesn't come even close to warranting some jerk (who likely doesn't have DRK unlocked, much less touched Gladiator or Marauder) heaping abuse at a tank doing his/her job right. Have a seat, hotshot.

You mean you and others who intentionally do the bare minimum?

I survive every single tank buster in the game just fine in Sword Oath with HP to spare. Your ability to survive is scripted and completely inconsequential (especially moreso in low skill content) where a single healer shield/regen can last 50%+ the bosses HP.

The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

Why take responsibilities for your own performance guys, when you can shift the blame to someone else.

~Typical FF14 player.

Ah yes, the ol' thinly veiled "expecting more than the barest minimum is elitism" argument. By your silly logic, players should be able to go into dungeons and literally auto-attack mobs to death and no one should be allowed to say anything or remove them, because after all that's "enough to get things done".

Well I mean, if someone is regularly being removed from different, unrelated groups for the same reason every time it isn't hard to draw a simple and accurate conclusion that the person being kicked is indeed holding themselves back for refusal to fix what they know everyone else sees as a problem.

This guy gets it. See above, why take responsibility for the common denominator (OP), when you can blame someone else.

No. A RDM spamming Jolt is not acceptable. A PLD holding hate with only Flash is not acceptable. A healer never DPSing is not acceptable. It's lazy. You have an entire kit of abilities here and I can tell you that using the vast majority of them (sorry Repose and Fluid Aura) is the key to a swift and effective victory. A tank stance dancing is no different. While I would advocate for a less kick-happy mentality when dealing with someone playing their job poorly I don't see anything wrong with giving some advice and expecting to see them at least try. If that advice prompts a hostile response well then I'm not voting to kick a bad tank just an oversensitive jerk.

The point is that you have to try. Not even try hard (those are actually two separate words, not sure you knew - also a verb and an adjective, no nouns here) just try. I've coaxed many a baby tank through dropping stance on bosses and seen them outdps me thanks to this handy crystal ball a friend sometimes carries around. The OP could easily be another one if she's on Aether. Between CD rotation, immunities and a little help from a competent healer you don't have to be a "raider" to stance dance as a tank anymore.

Another person who gets it. A minutia of critical thinking really goes a long way...

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

Don't treat it as an added CD. Your CD's are pretty fixed as to when you should use them to maximize their benefit. I too wish it wasn't on GCD or cost MP...

When I'm with PUG healers, I'm very cautious. That being said, I just came out of an Expert roulette as PLD with a WHM healer friend. in Ala Mhigo. Even managed to pull off the penta-pull (butt clenching moments aplenty, with a DRG/MCH DPS, might not have been the best idea but whatever), and I spent more time in Sword Oath than Shield Oath in bosses. I did 1 or 2 enmity combos, then Sword Oath and pushing out DPS. That's how I am, I'm cautious around people I haven't built that trust with, but once the trust is there, I'm going to go balls against the wall. So what would your tips be for overcoming the cautiousness around PUG healers (and their wildly varying skill levels)?

Don't be. Trial by fire. I've overpulled with shitty healers before and wiped the party. It was my fault just as much as everyone elses. The healer tried their best and couldn't do it. I apologized for overpulling and moved on. I didn't make excuses or call the healer shit. He knows it was part his fault that he couldn't do it. In some situations I've had to explain to WHM's how Holy works and why it's the best defensive cooldown in the game for dungeons.

People don't get as mad about wipes if you own it. In fact, I've done some stupid shit before and as long as you own it and don't make excuses people are generally pretty good about it.

I've had healers who say they had no idea they could handle X because they never tried and were glad I took them out of comfort zone.

As an 'elitist' as I've been called on many forums I'll NEVER be mad or upset with someone who tries and fails. But not trying? That's a shame.

It's the same reason I always advocate learning parties over clear parties. People who join learning parties WANT to learn. People who tend to join clear parties WANT to be carried to a clear.

I would say first off you're a PLD - you've got the best mitigation tool in the game in Hallowed. Know that you have that there as your "oh sh!t" button when you need it.

Hallowed is much better served as an actual cooldown and not an oh shit button.

I get bullied for dps stance

Preach. Despite being #1 overall DPS in Rabanastre AND holding threat on the boss in Sword Oath, a handful of people including the other tanks gave me shit about being in tank stance. I just Lol'd.

So for DRK and PLD...how should I be doing stance dancing? In dungeons as well as trials? Like, how can you be confident that you will not lose hate because of it? Because to be perfectly honest, now I'm afraid that what the OP experienced will happen to me.

Dungeons are easy. Big pulls -> use Shield Oath. With Shield Oath you do not need a ton of flashes for AOE aggro. You can use FoF -> Flash -> CoS -> spam TE. You shouldn't lose aggro. Try to rotate your auto's/swipes on different targets though.

For bosses, one enmity combo, and switch to sword. You may need more RoH's towards end. If the boss is like sub 5%, and a DPS rips threat, just cover them and keep DPSing and pray to god their not an idiot who thinks they can run away from the boss or that the boss does ANY kind of appreciable damage...

For Trials, make sure you coordinate with your co-tank. You will need voke/shirks if you want to sit in DPS stance full time. Make sure they have it before pull, and make sure you mention to DPS to have threat reducer skills.

It is more DPS to use RoH in Sword Oath, than it is to use RA in Shield Oath.

[Lewtskie]

Don't be. Trial by fire. I've overpulled with shitty healers before and wiped the party. It was my fault just as much as everyone elses. The healer tried their best and couldn't do it. I apologized for overpulling and moved on. I didn't make excuses or call the healer shit. He knows it was part his fault that he couldn't do it. In some situations I've had to explain to WHM's how Holy works and why it's the best defensive cooldown in the game for dungeons.

People don't get as mad about wipes if you own it. In fact, I've done some stupid shit before and as long as you own it and don't make excuses people are generally pretty good about it.

I've had healers who say they had no idea they could handle X because they never tried and were glad I took them out of comfort zone.

As an 'elitist' as I've been called on many forums I'll NEVER be mad or upset with someone who tries and fails. But not trying? That's a shame.

How about not trial by fire and instead actively gauge your healer's capabilities when in a pug. Caution coupled with critical thinking is the best option to not waste everyone's time and kill the mood. You brush it off with a "Haha, whoops" and I'm sitting here rolling my eyes as we have to re-commence, it's annoying. I would not give you crap about it but I'm still bothered none-the-less.

It's great that some healers showed appreciation for this, and I'm sure others you have or haven't ran with were/would be pretty cross about it. But some may still be getting their bearings, and trying to build up their ability as they go. Pushing them into the fire face first is not going to sit well with everyone, even those trying to improve themselves, and it could end up doing damage beyond the run.

You think on such extreme levels, I wouldn't call you elitist, just that there's more ways to deal with a situation that running to smash your face into a wall and dealing with the consequences afterwards.