Tank dps harrasment

[Taika]

First of all, it's simply ridiculous to demand high DPS performance from any job in DF content such as dungeons or hunts. As long as everyone is trying to actively contribute, it should be enough, even though their playing isn't optional.

However, when we talk about PF and raid finder content, the expectations are higher, since the content itself requires certain level of optimisation. In Ultimate, Savage and extremes, you should already be familiar with your job and know how to use it in a way that's the most beneficial to your party. Most of all you should aim for being as useful to your party as possible. If you know that you could tank the content (with an enrage!) in DPS stance and improve your party's DPS like that but you refuse to do it, making it harder for your group than it should be, it's understandable if your group doesn't want you with them.

Also, party finder groups are free to set their own entry requirements as they wish, no matter how ridiculous they are. And, at the same time, it doesn't make much sense for people to join a group where everyone else has a completely different mentality towards performance and optimisation. If you're excluded from a group because everyone else there is ranking significantly higher than you - especially for reasons such as refusing to play your job according to the current standard - chances are your mentality is quite different from theirs.

Lastly, there's nothing in the ToS against checking players' logs and including or excluding them from groups because of that. It's done all the time, even as written in party finder descriptions, and there is nothing that has been or will be done against it, since checking someone's logs doesn't even mean you're using a parser. All it means is you're browsing a website. That's like saying you're reporting people for saying they've checked your Lodestone profile. (Of course harassment based on someone's logs is and should be a reportable offense, but simply pointing out that your public records for a particular fight are too low for a group's requirements is not harassment.)

[jameseoakes]

Lastly, there's nothing in the ToS against checking players' logs and including or excluding them from groups because of that. It's done all the time, even as written in party finder descriptions, and there is nothing that has or will be done against it, since checking someone's logs doesn't even mean you're using a parser. All it means is you're browsing a website. That's like saying you're reporting people for saying they've checked your Lodestone profile. (Of course harassment based on someone's logs is and should be a reportable offense, but simply pointing out that your public records for a particular fight are too low for a group's requirements is not harassment.)

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

[Avatre]

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

It's more of a grey area than anything else. They don't care if you use it, as long as there is zero harassment going on because of it. BUT, that doesn't exactly mean you can use it openly as there are some people that even the mentioning of a parser will send them reporting to the GMs(I remember seeing a post somewhere on the forums where someone stated they did that if someone said they use a parser).

[Oscura]

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

Everything from the parsers and FFlogs is being pulled directly from the battle log in game. The one you can read. It just makes it even easier to read.

[Taika]

Aren't those logs being made using data that should not be obtainable without people breaking the ToS. I'm starting to wonder if the harassment from people abusing FFlogs maybe something FFLogs or SE themselves will need to look into.

They're based on parsing which is against ToS, yes (although the developers openly turn a blind eye to it).
(Edit: I don't know if it would be possible to have a similar site but upgrade direct game log data instead of taking it through a parser. But yeah, as already pointed out, the parser basically just reads your game battle log.) But having your logs up there does not mean you have been parsing, it just means someone in your group has. During the discussion in the latest parser thread, I checked there were over 110 000 public group parses just for OS1, so there are almost 900 000 player parses just for that fight (of course there are generally multiple parses for one player). If SE was to ban all the people who they'd find there, well, you can imagine what that would do to the playerbase (in fact, they would ban you).

You really need to separate harassment from stating numbers though, those are two very different things.

[jameseoakes]

They're based on parsing which is against ToS, yes (although the developers openly turn a blind eye to it).
(Edit: I don't know if it would be possible to have a similar site but upgrade direct game log data instead of taking it through a parser. But yeah, as already pointed out, the parser basically just reads your game battle log.) But having your logs up there does not mean you have been parsing, it just means someone in your group has. During the discussion in the latest parser thread, I checked there were over 110 000 public group parses just for OS1, so there are almost 900 000 player parses just for that fight (of course there are generally multiple parses for one player). If SE was to ban all the people who they'd find there, well, you can imagine what that would do to the playerbase (in fact, they would ban you).

You really need to separate harassment from stating numbers though, those are two very different things.

I know you don't need personally parse to have data FFlogs but the fact that data is uploaded and displayed without the consent of the players is worrying given the trend to abuse the data offered by the site.

I also didn't mean to imply that people that have data on FFlogs should be banned (as that would be almost everyone who's been in savage). FFlogs should have a consent in system though.
Also I feel this is getting a tad off topic

[Taika]

the fact that data is uploaded and displayed without the consent of the players is worrying given the trend to abuse the data offered by the site.

Where is this "trend to abuse the data"? What do you mean by that? I have done a lot of Savage and extreme pugging in SB, and I have only once in that entire time seen a person being excluded from a group because of their numbers. It was OS4 first clear party, the person was a DD, and the group could not have beaten the fight with that person. Cases like this are not "abuse", they are using objective data to make informed decisions - in this case one that prevented one person from ruining the group. Having high DPS farm groups where low rank players aren't allowed also isn't abuse - it's about being open about your expectations and allowing similar minded and skilled people to play together at their own level.

Sure the OP has told how they were kicked from a DF dungeon because of DPS, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a "trend" either, since everyone here seems to 100% agree with it being completely ridiculous.

Edit: As far as I know, I think you're allowed to hide your own data from FFlogs too. I understand it's not the same than asking your permission to show it in the first place, but at least it's there.

[CaTi]

Edit: As far as I know, I think you're allowed to hide your own data from FFlogs too. I understand it's not the same than asking your permission to show it in the first place, but at least it's there.

Yeah but you have to actually sign up and "claim" your character first I believe. And some people are naturally wary of third party sites. It's not ideal really :/

[jameseoakes]

Where is this "trend to abuse the data"? What do you mean by that? I have done a lot of Savage and extreme pugging in SB, and I have only once in that entire time seen a person being excluded from a group because of their numbers. It was OS4 first clear party, the person was a DD, and the group could not have beaten the fight with that person. Cases like this are not "abuse", they are using objective data to make informed decisions - in this case one that prevented one person from ruining the group. Having high DPS farm groups where low rank players aren't allowed also isn't abuse - it's about being open about your expectations and allowing similar minded and skilled people to play together at their own level.

Sure the OP has told how they were kicked from a DF dungeon because of DPS, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a "trend" either, since everyone here seems to 100% agree with it being completely ridiculous.

Edit: As far as I know, I think you're allowed to hide your own data from FFlogs too. I understand it's not the same than asking your permission to show it in the first place, but at least it's there.

I might be exaggerating the trend to myself but I have seen more cases than I'd like to of people looking up other players from the forums and calling them out on there performance. I can't say using it to check on people sits well with me, it might makes sense at very high level play but I'd be very worried if that trickles down in to the midcore

[Taika]

I might be exaggerating the trend to myself but I have seen more cases than I'd like to of people looking up other players from the forums and calling them out on there performance.

Can you post some links if there truly are that many cases? I saw one in this thread, but that was a person who called for others to look their logs, so doesn't really count as such. I also remember another recent case of a person talking about how they're doing really well in their job without the parser, to which someone replied with their logs pointing out the opposite, but I don't remember ever seeing people bringing up other players' numbers in a situation in which the numbers wouldn't be relevant to the discussion (like in these two examples).